the great rebirth debate

[Sanghamitta]

I think rather than the language involved Aloka the most important thing is to reply without the snippy attitude.
Otherwise I might wonder why you are bothering to consort with monks and nuns at all.
If I joined a Tibetan forum I would learn Tibetan terms. Not an unreasonable demand I think.
You might want to start with learning the meaning of punarbhava. It is one of the terms used by the Buddha, and which is very poorly translated by the term Rebirth...and disastrously badly translated by the term reincarnation.



Valerie.

[Aloka]

I think rather than the language involved Aloka the most important thing is to reply without the snippy attitude.
Otherwise I might wonder why you are bothering to consort with monks and nuns at all.
If I joined a Tibetan forum I would learn Tibetan terms. Not an unreasonable demand I think.



Valerie.

"Snippy attitude" is entirely your own interpretation, Valerie.

Are you a monk or a nun yourself ?

"Consort" can also mean like husband or wife, so personally I'd be wary of using that term in connection with monks and nuns !

Have a lovely day.

[Sanghamitta]

Dear oh dear.

[cooran]

Hey guys,

Settle down!
No need to be at daggers drawn.

Any difficulties with language before you become familiar with the usual Pali terms can be eased by checking with this dictionary.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ict.n2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[mikenz66]

As Cooran indicates, Ven Nyanatiloka's Dictionary is often useful for clarifying Pali terms:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ict.n2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In this case:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... punabbhava" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Punabbhava: lit.: re-becoming; 'renewed existence', is a sutta term for 'rebirth', which, in later literature mostly is called patisandhi The attainment of Sainthood arahatta implying the end of future rebirths, is often expressed in the words:;This is the last birth. Now there is no more a renewed existence!; natthi dāni punabbhavo M. 26; D. 15; Therag. 87, 339; Sn. 502. - The term is often linked with abhinibbatti 'arising'.

But how, o brother, does it come to renewed existence and arising in the future āyatim punabbhavābhinibbatti? Because beings, obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving, find ever fresh delight now here, now there, for this reason there is renewed existence and arising in the future; M. 43. See also S.XII. 38. abhinibbatti also stands sometimes alone in signifying 'rebirth', e.g. in A. VI, 61; X, 65.

Cf., in the 2nd Truth, the adj. ponobhavika 'leading to renewed existence'.

See A. III, 76; Sn. 163, 273, 514, 733; S. VII, 12; X, 3.

Mike

[Ben]

Moderator note:

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Thanks for your kind attention.

Ben

[Sanghamitta]

You are quite right Chris. None at all. I think though that when one has to justify using basic terms like punarbhava on a Theravadin forum , the swing to the demotic has gone too far.



Valerie.

[mikenz66]

I think though that when one has to justify using basic terms like punarbhava on a Theravadin forum , the swing to the demotic has gone too far.
.

As a point of clarification, I'd like to point out that the usual Pali spelling is punabbhava...

A search for punarbhava (Sanskrit, I guess) won't get many good Theravada sources.

Mike

[Aloka]

I think though that when one has to justify using basic terms like punarbhava on a Theravadin forum , the swing to the demotic has gone too far.
.

As a point of clarification, I'd like to point out that the usual Pali spelling is punabbhava...

A search for punarbhava (Sanskrit, I guess) won't get many good Theravada sources.

Mike

Thanks very much for the clarification, Mike !

[Sunrise]

And so, according to you, mundane right view and sila are not central parts of the dhamma, right?

I take it you also reject the Buddha's "graduated path"....

Let me repeat. Belief in rebirth is NOT central, essential, inseparable (whatever) part to Buddhism. Belief in rebirth is not an integral part of the four noble truths. You can follow a moral conduct whether you believe in rebirth or not. You can be a person established in sila whether there is rebirth or not. Yes, sila is essential for samadhi and wisdom. But rebirth beliefs are not essential to sila. Get it?

And, as you have indicated several times, the four noble truths refer to present-life suffering and not to endless cycling through samsara?

Let me repeat. I have indicated several times that the four noble truths are visible and verifiable here and now. You can believe in rebirth and expand it to many lifetimes if you like or you can leave rebirth beliefs aside and apply it to this lifetime. I am not the one who is trying to gulp down a belief down my throat and the others' you know.

In brief, when you say that rebirth/kamma are not central to the dhamma, you mean a dhamma that has had quite a lot excised from it. And if that works for you, fine! My interest in this thread mainly has to do with precision of terms.

Lazy, please believe in what you like. This thread is about "whether Buddhism can exist without belief in rebirth". My answer is yes.

If a student or other newcomer comes to this forum looking for information about Buddhism, it's misleading to tell him/her that rebirth and kamma are not core teachings.

Wait, I can do that too. If a student or other newcomer comes to this forum looking for information about Buddhism, it's misleading to tell him/her that rebirth and kamma are core teachings. Tell them that the four noble truths are the core teachings. They will decide whether they should take up beliefs (if that helps their practice) or not. Get it?

This is just contravened by so many of the suttas

Let me repeat. Please provide me a quote where the Buddha says that belief in rebirth is essential to Buddhism and you cannot follow it without believing in it.

What would be more accurate, in my view, is to acknowledge there are "reformist" or "modernist" currents...

And there are also fundamentalist extremists. They continue to state that we should believe in what they believe in because according to their understanding of the suttas, rebirth is essential to the practice. It's like the Christians saying "If you don't believe in God you are doomed to hell"

Simple, except that your statement contradicts itself. How can one "let beliefs go" while undertaking to "be a good person"? "Good" is itself a belief, implying an ethical system or at least some vague assemblage of sentiments and principles.

There is no point in this subtle sophistry. Let me ask you, if you got to know that rebirth does not exist and when you die that will be it, will you cease to be a good man abiding by the five precepts from tomorrow? Will the five precepts mean anything to you and your practice if there is no rebirth? Do you follow a moral conduct because there is rebirth not because morality and sila helps you in your mental stability and samadhi, which is required for wisdom to arise? If there is no rebirth, does that mean we should forget about general social morality and well being of others?

The approach taught in the dhamma, as I understand it, is not "let beliefs go and just be a good person". It is more like "be a good person and cultivate until you get to a point where beliefs can go". In other words, the scaffolding has to be there before you kick it away.

Let me repeat. No one is asking you to let your beliefs go and just be a good person. If you think your beliefs are required for you to follow the five precepts, then carry on. There are some of us who do not need rebirth beliefs to abide by the five precepts. It is absolutely possible to practice dhamma without believing or disbelieving rebirth. You seem to be having a hard time wrapping your brain around that don't you?

[tiltbillings]

And so, according to you, mundane right view and sila are not central parts of the dhamma, right?

I take it you also reject the Buddha's "graduated path"....

Let me repeat. Belief in rebirth is NOT central, essential, inseparable (whatever) part to Buddhism. Belief in rebirth is not an integral part of the four noble truths. You can follow a moral conduct whether you believe in rebirth or not. You can be a person established in sila whether there is rebirth or not. Yes, sila is essential for samadhi and wisdom. But rebirth beliefs are not essential to sila. Get it?

You can follow the precepts, you can practice meditation without believing in rebirth. That is not an issue, but the Buddha taught rebirth. It is part of his teachings.

[Sunrise]

You can follow the precepts, you can practice meditation without believing in rebirth. That is not an issue, but the Buddha taught rebirth. It is part of his teachings.

Are you getting off topic tiltbillings?

[Sanghamitta]

I think though that when one has to justify using basic terms like punarbhava on a Theravadin forum , the swing to the demotic has gone too far.
.

As a point of clarification, I'd like to point out that the usual Pali spelling is punabbhava...

A search for punarbhava (Sanskrit, I guess) won't get many good Theravada sources.

Mike

Thank you MIke. You are of course quite right. I allowed myself to be swayed by Spellcheck. *
It remains a fact that the Buddha spoke of punarbhava/punabbhava, and "Rebirth" conveys very little of what he was actually teaching. I think there are a few key terms that we should not attempt to translate , but rather that we should approach on THEIR terms...the most notorious being Dukkha..but I would contend that Anicca and Anatta are virtually impossible to translate without whole threads and half a page pf script...its far easier to learn a few key concepts. And the various terms that the Buddha actually used to describe the process by which one group of skandhas leads to another are well worth internalising.
Having said all that the point I was making is that there are some aspects of Dhamma which are unavoidable. The whole sphere of Sila for example is not a matter of belief, but of action or refraining from action.
When it comes to beliefs. and for most of us that is what Rebirth ( in any language ) is, I think we should emphasise those practices which give rise to an understanding of the processes involved. Not start with a belief system which defines whether someone is a true believer or not.
If Rebirth is factual we should have faith in our practice to show us that by the time honoured ways laid down by generations of Dhamma students. Not argue the toss on a website. Are certainly not by suggesting that anyone who is still in the process of internalising these concepts is a second class citizen bound for hell unless we save them.

* which on my checker recognises punarbhava...but not punabbhava..its clearly a Mahayanist Spellchecker.

[tiltbillings]

You can follow the precepts, you can practice meditation without believing in rebirth. That is not an issue, but the Buddha taught rebirth. It is part of his teachings.

Are you getting off topic tiltbillings?

Damdifino.

Basically, it is one opinion versus another. Can Buddhism exist if rebirth is proven to be false? If proving rebirth false were possible, something would exist, but it would be not quite be the Buddha's teachings.

It is, however, a meaningless question in that rebirth cannot be proven either true or false in any sort of objective manner any more than nibbana can be. Basically, this topic, as has been shown at length, is a tail chaser:

[Sanghamitta]

This topic ALWAYS is...The time would be much better spent finding out for ourselves....with appropriate guidance.