Alex123 wrote:Speaking precisely, all feelings (including “pleasant” ones) are ultimately just greater or lesser dukkha. SN36.2, SN36.5, SN36.11.
You seem to be confusing two different uses of the word Dukkha.
1. Dukkha as a Feeling (vedanā) of unpleasantness and as opposed to sukhā (pleasant)
2. Dukkha as one of the three characteristics which applies universally to all conditioned Dhammas
This is Dukkha as ultimate unsatisfactoriness. The fact that no dhamma by itself leads to permanent happiness. Conditioned dhammas are ultimately unreliable as ways to find enduring happiness.
All conditioned dhammas being Dukkha does not mean that all we find in this life is unpleasantness. The pleasantness we feel is as real as the unpleasantness. Both of these are conditioned and impermanent. The happiness that arises from the unconditioned dhamma is real. You are misrepresenting Buddhism as teaching that 'all conditioned dhammas are dukkha' means 'the entirety of life is unpleasantness, any apparent pleasantness or happiness is an illusion'. It is over-simplistic and misleading as well as a blatant contradiction of what anyone (who is not severely depressed and pessimistic) actually experiences in life if they are paying attention to their actual life.
Thus, since it's initial premise is false, your argument that 'since life is suffering, without rebirth we might as well all commit suicide' falls apart.
Alex123 wrote:Even pleasant feelings are ultimately just suffering, only to a lesser degree. Even blissful Jhānic feelings are stressful (AN 9.41) in comparison with higher Jhānas (where more and more vedana and other mental factors have ceased). Since there is less suffering, the more pleasant feeling are only mispercieved as happiness in contrast to much greater suffering that came before. Their pleasure is due to absence of most suffering. The pleasant feelings are pleasant only in comparison with far greater suffering. One of the perversions of perception is seeing pleasure in painful. So due to this perversion people actually think that some things are happy. It is perversion of perception and view, not how it actually is.
1. What does the Buddha's use of the word 'Sukkha' refer to ? An illusion?
2. What does the Buddha's many descriptions of the happiness of Nibbana refer to ? Another illusion?
Alex123 wrote:Another example: You are tired of being on foot all day and decide to lie down and rest. Lying down and resting feels pleasant (at first). But try to remain in that pleasant position motionless for may hours (lets say 12+) and it will feel painful, you will want to get up and stretch or stand or walk. So in one case it felt pleasant, but when you got more of it (more of the subtle suffering) it added up to lots of discomfort. Changing posture seems pleasant, but try to remain in that “pleasant” posture for too long. You will be unable to bear that “pleasure”.
Simple: don't have too much of anything. Otherwise, pleasure becomes displeasure. Does this mean 'everything is displeasure'? No. Does it mean it makes sense if we all kill ourselves? No. It means 'everything in moderation', 'easy on the salt'. No one said anything about 'inherent nature of pleasure' except you.
“Whether it be pleasant or painful, Along with the neither-painful-nor-pleasant, Both the internal and the external, Whatever kind of feeling there is: Having known, This is suffering (dukkhanti), Perishable, disintegrating, Having touched and touched them, seeing their fall, Thus one loses one's passion for them” SN36.2(2)
It's unfortunate that 'Dukkha' is sometimes mistranslated as if it mean 'painful'. Except when 'Dukkha' refers to a Feeling (Vedana) of Unpleasantness. 'Unsatisfactory', or 'unreliable' is usually more accurate.
While craving is one of the factors for mental suffering, there can be physical pain unrelated to current craving. Even Arhats & Buddha experienced excruciating pain. Was it all due to craving they had at that time? No. It is nature of Samsara to be unsatisfactory.
Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Pleasure too happens in every life.
Even 8th Jhana is still imperfect. No feelings & perceptions is much better. If there was one life, it would be easy to accomplish that.
If you truly imagine the goal of Buddhism is some sort of oblivion. And if you seek that goal, then... well... your life must be pretty hard.
Secondly, any imagined improvement from suicide would never be experienced.
And neither would drawbacks be experienced, if there was one life.
Right - suicide would lead to neither improvement nor drawbacks for oneself (although it may create tremendous suffering for friends and family). And so how does this support your belief that suicide makes sense or would be a good thing for anyone who doesn't believe in rebirth? It doesn't. Suicide would not improve anyone's situation. A sensible course of action for someone who lacks a belief in multiple lives rather is to make the most of this existence. That is, to act in such a way that minimises unpleasantness and maximises pleasantness. Or even better, to find a happiness which is not conditional on unreliable dhammas, perhaps by practising the Buddha dhamma.