the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by bodom »

Hi clw_uk

Compared with Bodhi and Nanamoli's Majjhima Nikaya, that is a terrible translation.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by lojong1 »

Aren't there far more suttas containing the Pali rebirth words where 'rebirth' doesn't fit so well?
Lokavipatti sutta: ""For an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person there arise (uppajjati--often 'reborn') gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain."
I'm not sure it ever fits.
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Will wrote:
bodom wrote:Ok, im done. That should get the ball rolling for ya individual.

:anjali:
Well done bodom :bow:
Here here! :smile:

I think that most new comers to the Dhamma would do well to ponder on a number of these for some time, before wading into the "how is there rebirth without a soul?" question. For, without this background, the majority of people will then wander off down the wrong path of annihilism. Big mistake to make!
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

bodom wrote:Hi clw_uk

Compared with Bodhi and Nanamoli's Majjhima Nikaya, that is a terrible translation.

:anjali:

On what authority do you claim that?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Anuruddha, for what purpose does the Thus Gone One tell the disciples, without wasting time, before you die, be born in something higher. Stating one is born there, another there. (* 2) The Teaching’s origin is the Blessed One, its lead is from the Blessed One, and its refuge is the Blessed One. Good that the meaning occurs to the Blessed One.We, bhikkhus, hearing it from the Blessed One, will bear it in mind. Anuruddha, the Thus Gone One tells the disciples, without wasting time before you die, be born in something higher. Telling them one is born there, another there. Not to deceive people, not for prattling, and not for gain honour or fame and not thinking may the people know me thus. Yet, Anuruddha, there are sons of clansmen who are born in faith and are pleased, to hear it. Hearing it they would arouse interest and direct their minds to that and it would be for their good for a long time.



http://www.vipassana.info/068-nalakapana-e1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What point are you trying to make with this quote?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22405
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Anuruddha, for what purpose does the Thus Gone One tell the disciples, without wasting time, before you die, be born in something higher. Stating one is born there, another there. (* 2) The Teaching’s origin is the Blessed One, its lead is from the Blessed One, and its refuge is the Blessed One. Good that the meaning occurs to the Blessed One.We, bhikkhus, hearing it from the Blessed One, will bear it in mind. Anuruddha, the Thus Gone One tells the disciples, without wasting time before you die, be born in something higher. Telling them one is born there, another there. Not to deceive people, not for prattling, and not for gain honour or fame and not thinking may the people know me thus. Yet, Anuruddha, there are sons of clansmen who are born in faith and are pleased, to hear it. Hearing it they would arouse interest and direct their minds to that and it would be for their good for a long time.



http://www.vipassana.info/068-nalakapana-e1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What point are you trying to make with this quote?



No point really just thought it was an interesting sutta to quote
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by tiltbillings »

Moderator note: Please keep quotations of suttas to the point of the OP:

What are the most important suttas in understanding rebirth?

(You can just mention suttas -- don't worry, I'm not here for a debate!)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Sobeh
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US
Contact:

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by Sobeh »

It might not be germane to most peoples interests, but I found that reading the Upanisads gave me a much better understanding of the histo-cultural context of the Dhamma, rebirth included.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sobeh wrote:It might not be germane to most peoples interests, but I found that reading the Upanisads gave me a much better understanding of the histo-cultural context of the Dhamma, rebirth included.
This a point Richard Gombrich makes in his writings. Do keep in mind that at best maybe three Upanishads were contemporaneous with the Buddha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by BlackBird »

Sutta 129 & 130 of the Majjhima give graphic descriptions of the Hell realms (and heavenly in the case of 129). The Buddha ends his sermon on The Divine Messengers (MN 130) as follows:

"Bhikkhus, I tell you this not as something I heard from another recluse or brahmin. I tell you this as something that I have actually known, seen and discovered myself."

I think this passage puts paid to the suggestion that rebirth is (or has) an outside influence.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by bodom »

BlackBird wrote:Sutta 129 & 130 of the Majjhima give graphic descriptions of the Hell realms (and heavenly in the case of 129). The Buddha ends his sermon on The Divine Messengers (MN 130) as follows:

"Bhikkhus, I tell you this not as something I heard from another recluse or brahmin. I tell you this as something that I have actually known, seen and discovered myself."

I think this passage puts paid to the suggestion that rebirth is (or has) an outside influence.
Excellent BlackBird thank you for that.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by lojong1 »

Aggi vacchagotta sutta, MN72: "This is not my view Vaccha, that one gone beyond arises after the breaking up of the body."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by tiltbillings »

Now, on account of what, was it said that the Four Noble Truths are the Dhamma taught by me? Based on the six elements there is descent into the womb. Such descent taking place, there is name-and-form. ... This is suffering .... AN 3 61
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Now, on account of what, was it said that the Four Noble Truths are the Dhamma taught by me? Based on the six elements there is descent into the womb. Such descent taking place, there is name-and-form. ... This is suffering .... AN 3 61
Not having a copy of AN 3.61 I can't check, but I'd be interested to know whether "into the womb" is in the actual sutta text, or whether it's in [square brackets], being added by the translator in a hope to provide clarity to the translation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Suttas relevant to Rebirth?

Post by rowyourboat »

Name-and-form
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"

"No, lord."

"If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?"

"No, lord."

"If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"

"No, lord."

"Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Post Reply