the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmAs the title above, I believe that Stream entry and attainment
the idea of "I believe" won't reach stream-entry. Its not about ego or book faith. Its about being able to drop craving & attachment
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmis really important to practising Buddhists
sotappana is a supramundane fruition that happens in an instant. it appears there cannot be "practising Buddhists" on a supramundane level that are not sotapanna. in other words, whatever these 'Buddhists' are practising, it is not the supramundane practice.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm, by upholding the four advices given by the Buddha, namely:
1) Associate with wise people
2) Listen to the true Dhamma
Many heard the Buddha but did not attain sotappana. On this very forum called Dhammawheel, many revile the True Dhammma. Many believe the True Dhamma is about rebirth; which MN 117 says is not Noble. It follows sotappana will be difficult here for those unable to realise as the sotapanna do: "ALL SUBJECT TO ARISING IS SUBJECT TO CESSSATION" - SN 56.11
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm3) Wise consideration
the above is true in theory but not in practise. for example, on this very forum called Dhammawheel, many revile the True Dhammma. Many believe the True Dhamma is about rebirth; which MN 117 says is not the true noble dhamma. It follows sotappana will be difficult here for those unable to realise as the sotapanna do: "ALL SUBJECT TO ARISING IS SUBJECT TO CESSSATION" - SN 56.11
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm4) Practice according the Dhamma
Bhikkhu Buddhadasa taught how to practice according to the True Dhamma, namely, eradicating self-view
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmAnd according to the Suttas, Sotapanna is about eliminating the 3 samyojana (Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, Silabbata paramasa) and gaining the 4 factors (unwavering confidence to Buddha, ...to Dhamma, ...to Sangha,& uphold untorn, unbroken virtues praised by the wise ones)
sure, this can be copy & pasted from a book
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmFor me, the three factors :
To get rid of Sakkaya Ditthi: I am read and ponder Anattalakkhana Sutta. And also the Okkantasamyutta 10 short suttas.
The above can be reaching to high. Anattalakkhana Sutta resulted in arahants. Premature reading of Anattalakkhana Sutta will cause the self to think like Vacchagotta in SN 44.10 or cause difficulty like to Channa in SN 22.90. The suttas appear to mostly show the Dhammacakkappavatta Sutta for stream-entry, i.e, giving up of craving, including the craving :P for stream-entry.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmTo get rid of Vicikiccha:
1) To Buddha: Jayamangala atthagatha and Buddhanussati meditation. It was sufficient for me.
The above appears contradicting what was previously written. Previously, it was written: "Sotapanna is about eliminating the 3 samyojana (Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, Silabbata paramasa) and gaining the 4 factors". In other words, unwavering confidence to Buddha is not the giving up of Vicikiccha. Vicikiccha is given up by Dhammavicaya, namely, having the direct realisation the abandoning of Sakkaya Ditthi results in peace & freedom.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm2) To Dhamma: I'm using Dhammacakkappavatana Sutta. It is sufficient for me.
The above sounds wrong. The suttas say the Dhamma confidence is: "the dhamma is well-spoken by the Blessed One, visible in the here & now, inviting inspection, immediately effective, to be experienced by the wise individually".

If the Dhammacakkappavatana Sutta is misinterpreted to mean "rebirth", it cannot be a refuge because the word "ponobhavika" in the Dhammacakkappavatana Sutta means "new becoming"; which means "new egoism".
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm3) To Sangha: I read Dhammapada and stories of great Arahanta Thera and Theri. That sufficient for me.
Often a puthujjana view the great Arahanta Thera and Theri with Sakkaya Ditthi; similar to Vakkali in the suttas.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmTo get rid of Silabbata paramasa:
I read the booklet "What Buddhists Believe" by late Dr K Sri Dhammananda Mahanayaka thera. So no more weird rituals, astrology, taro cards, mantras, belief of pure luck, or some rituals & rules to appease gods or guardian Devas.
get rid of Silabbata paramasa is done my getting rid of Vicikiccha. In other words, when having the direct realisation the abandoning of Sakkaya Ditthi results in peace & freedom; it is realised doing good & believing in "rebirth" is not directly related to the Path.

Possibly you can read how Bhikkhu Buddhadasa explained these things, here: EMANCIPATION FROM THE WORLD.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmAnd the four factors :

Unwavering confidence to Buddha, ...to Dhamma,...to Sangha:
I can gain them using methods above.
I pointed out the methods above appear wrong; particularly about the Dhamma. The Dhamma confidence is as follows:
‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha— visible here & now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, leading onwards (to inner peace), experienced individually by the wise.

‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhīti.
:alien:
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmUntorn unbroken virtues praised by the wise ones:
Here I got two versions, 5 precepts and 10 wholesome deeds (No killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, no lying, no backstabbing, no harsh speech, no vain talk, no conceit, no ill will, not to be deluded). I practice 5 precepts daily but vain talk is really hard when working in office with politics.
Sila can actually be an obstacle when there is Silabbata paramasa. Many do not use wise consideration to consider silabbata paramasa includes wrong views about sila; which generate self-views.

:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

There is no rebirth. Just eternal life as a human spirit,with your loved ones on earth.
And Eternal lunar hell for criminals and parasites.
Last edited by Zenny on Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:06 pm There is no rebirth. Just eternal life as a human spirit,with your loved ones.
Non buddhist
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:07 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:06 pm There is no rebirth. Just eternal life as a human spirit,with your loved ones.
Non buddhist
Yes. And proud!
Siddhartha was not a Buddhist nor a promoter of Buddhism.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:09 pm Siddhartha was not a Buddhist nor a promoter of Buddhism.
you are confused
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:13 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:09 pm Siddhartha was not a Buddhist nor a promoter of Buddhism.
you are confused
Nope. You are indoctrinated.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:17 pm You are indoctrinated.
yes with truth
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:30 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:17 pm You are indoctrinated.
yes with truth
That's what every dogmatist says to each other when disagreeing on fundamentals!
Try thinking without dogma mate.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:35 pm Try thinking without dogma mate.
No…
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:36 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:35 pm Try thinking without dogma mate.
No…
Go back to sleep.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:37 pm Go back to sleep.
Focus!
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:40 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:37 pm Go back to sleep.
Focus!
That's right! Good man! Try it!
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:46 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:40 pm
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:37 pm Go back to sleep.
Focus!
That's right! Good man! Try it!
already tried Zen
Zenny
Posts: 999
Joined: Wed May 12, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:10 am
Zenny wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:46 pm
cappuccino wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:40 pm

Focus!
That's right! Good man! Try it!
already tried Zen
Yes,but buddhist dogma laden zen no doubt.
Just try zen without any dogmas or buddhist beliefs.
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Zenny,
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:35 am Just try zen without any dogmas or buddhist beliefs.
Please desist from proselytizing other paths. (See ToS3i)

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Post Reply