the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Zenny
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Zenny »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:41 am Greetings Zenny,
Zenny wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:35 am Just try zen without any dogmas or buddhist beliefs.
Please desist from proselytizing other paths. (See ToS3i)

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
It was a bit of advise from an organic conversation.
Lighten up!
Non buddhist Zen Practitioner.
Focus!
Dhammavamsa
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by Dhammavamsa »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:27 pm
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmAs the title above, I believe that Stream entry and attainment
the idea of "I believe" won't reach stream-entry. Its not about ego or book faith. Its about being able to drop craving & attachment
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmis really important to practising Buddhists
sotappana is a supramundane fruition that happens in an instant. it appears there cannot be "practising Buddhists" on a supramundane level that are not sotapanna. in other words, whatever these 'Buddhists' are practising, it is not the supramundane practice.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm, by upholding the four advices given by the Buddha, namely:
1) Associate with wise people
2) Listen to the true Dhamma
Many heard the Buddha but did not attain sotappana. On this very forum called Dhammawheel, many revile the True Dhammma. Many believe the True Dhamma is about rebirth; which MN 117 says is not Noble. It follows sotappana will be difficult here for those unable to realise as the sotapanna do: "ALL SUBJECT TO ARISING IS SUBJECT TO CESSSATION" - SN 56.11
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm3) Wise consideration
the above is true in theory but not in practise. for example, on this very forum called Dhammawheel, many revile the True Dhammma. Many believe the True Dhamma is about rebirth; which MN 117 says is not the true noble dhamma. It follows sotappana will be difficult here for those unable to realise as the sotapanna do: "ALL SUBJECT TO ARISING IS SUBJECT TO CESSSATION" - SN 56.11
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm4) Practice according the Dhamma
Bhikkhu Buddhadasa taught how to practice according to the True Dhamma, namely, eradicating self-view
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmAnd according to the Suttas, Sotapanna is about eliminating the 3 samyojana (Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, Silabbata paramasa) and gaining the 4 factors (unwavering confidence to Buddha, ...to Dhamma, ...to Sangha,& uphold untorn, unbroken virtues praised by the wise ones)
sure, this can be copy & pasted from a book
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmFor me, the three factors :
To get rid of Sakkaya Ditthi: I am read and ponder Anattalakkhana Sutta. And also the Okkantasamyutta 10 short suttas.
The above can be reaching to high. Anattalakkhana Sutta resulted in arahants. Premature reading of Anattalakkhana Sutta will cause the self to think like Vacchagotta in SN 44.10 or cause difficulty like to Channa in SN 22.90. The suttas appear to mostly show the Dhammacakkappavatta Sutta for stream-entry, i.e, giving up of craving, including the craving :P for stream-entry.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmTo get rid of Vicikiccha:
1) To Buddha: Jayamangala atthagatha and Buddhanussati meditation. It was sufficient for me.
The above appears contradicting what was previously written. Previously, it was written: "Sotapanna is about eliminating the 3 samyojana (Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha, Silabbata paramasa) and gaining the 4 factors". In other words, unwavering confidence to Buddha is not the giving up of Vicikiccha. Vicikiccha is given up by Dhammavicaya, namely, having the direct realisation the abandoning of Sakkaya Ditthi results in peace & freedom.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm2) To Dhamma: I'm using Dhammacakkappavatana Sutta. It is sufficient for me.
The above sounds wrong. The suttas say the Dhamma confidence is: "the dhamma is well-spoken by the Blessed One, visible in the here & now, inviting inspection, immediately effective, to be experienced by the wise individually".

If the Dhammacakkappavatana Sutta is misinterpreted to mean "rebirth", it cannot be a refuge because the word "ponobhavika" in the Dhammacakkappavatana Sutta means "new becoming"; which means "new egoism".
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pm3) To Sangha: I read Dhammapada and stories of great Arahanta Thera and Theri. That sufficient for me.
Often a puthujjana view the great Arahanta Thera and Theri with Sakkaya Ditthi; similar to Vakkali in the suttas.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmTo get rid of Silabbata paramasa:
I read the booklet "What Buddhists Believe" by late Dr K Sri Dhammananda Mahanayaka thera. So no more weird rituals, astrology, taro cards, mantras, belief of pure luck, or some rituals & rules to appease gods or guardian Devas.
get rid of Silabbata paramasa is done my getting rid of Vicikiccha. In other words, when having the direct realisation the abandoning of Sakkaya Ditthi results in peace & freedom; it is realised doing good & believing in "rebirth" is not directly related to the Path.

Possibly you can read how Bhikkhu Buddhadasa explained these things, here: EMANCIPATION FROM THE WORLD.
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmAnd the four factors :

Unwavering confidence to Buddha, ...to Dhamma,...to Sangha:
I can gain them using methods above.
I pointed out the methods above appear wrong; particularly about the Dhamma. The Dhamma confidence is as follows:
‘The teaching is well explained by the Buddha— visible here & now, immediately effective, inviting inspection, leading onwards (to inner peace), experienced individually by the wise.

‘svākkhāto bhagavatā dhammo sandiṭṭhiko akāliko ehipassiko opaneyyiko paccattaṁ veditabbo viññūhīti.
:alien:
Dhammavamsa wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:59 pmUntorn unbroken virtues praised by the wise ones:
Here I got two versions, 5 precepts and 10 wholesome deeds (No killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, no lying, no backstabbing, no harsh speech, no vain talk, no conceit, no ill will, not to be deluded). I practice 5 precepts daily but vain talk is really hard when working in office with politics.
Sila can actually be an obstacle when there is Silabbata paramasa. Many do not use wise consideration to consider silabbata paramasa includes wrong views about sila; which generate self-views.

:smile:
Nay, I don't expect a nihilist like you understand at all.
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DooDoot
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:10 am Nay, I don't expect a nihilist like you understand at all.
nothing posted is any type of understanding

for at least the 4th time, the Pali term translated as "nihilist" is unrelated to reincarnation

"nihilist" both in Pali and Western philosophy means rejection of goodness & its benefits

:focus:
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:13 am
Dhammavamsa wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:10 am Nay, I don't expect a nihilist like you understand at all.
nothing posted is any type of understanding

for at least the 4th time, the Pali term translated as "nihilist" is unrelated to reincarnation

"nihilist" both in Pali and Western philosophy means rejection of goodness & its benefits

:focus:
That's a good point.

In accordance with Tos2d, it's time for you to "put up or shut up" on this matter, Dhammavamsa - either substantiate your accusation or desist from the unsubstantiated accusations.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:17 am That's a good point.
It is. Some folks have ideas unrelated to anything the Buddha taught.

For example, in his commentary on DN 1, Buddhaghosa appeared to change the definition of "annihilationism" from the view a "self" dies found in DN 1; to the view there is no reincarnation.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Tennok
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Tennok »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:27 pm I would like to see new explanations about rebirth rather than bringing to our attention english translations of the same Suttas (MN 36, SN 22.79, etc.) over and over. It only makes me more and more agnostic about the topic.

I found one argument about literal rebirth particularly convincing and strong. If we are being born and reborn without end - unless we reach Nibbana - then the whole picture of Samsara makes more sense. If it's just one life, why would you need Nibbana in the first place?

If I just want to end suffering in this life, I can simply commit suicide. In case of one life existence, it doesn't make much difference. I will die anyway, becouse of ilness, accident, or old age/natural causes. I can just live my animalistic, sensual life and crawl my way to the end somehow. The Damma seems to be a less necessary tactic in such "one time" world.

Ot the other hand, if the reincarnations are happening endlessly, Damma is like a saw, smuggled into the prison in a basket. It's a tool to help us in our Great Escape. The only tool. There is a sutta, where Buddha says that the tears we cried in our milions of lifetimes, can fill entire ocean, and the bones form our dead corpses can create great mountains. In such gigantic, cosmic perspective, reincarnation really makes sense.

Without reincarnation, Damma is like a boring, indie movie about compassion, connectivity and welness. With reincarnation included, it's a real drama, a blockbuster. :popcorn:

Od course, there is a problem with anatta, and the paradox of what actually reincarnates, but hey, you can't have everything. :smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Tennok wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 am Without reincarnation, Damma is like a boring...
Yes. The Buddha's supramundane revelations of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness & not-self, which result in disenchantment & dispassion (SN 22.59), sound "boring" for ordinary people. The Buddha himself said:
MN 26 wrote: But this generation delights in attachment, takes delight in attachment, rejoices in attachment. It is hard for such a generation to see this truth, namely, specific conditionality, dependent origination. And it is hard to see this truth, namely, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion :x , cessation, Nibbāna.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi
That is why the Buddha taught to teach laypeople the path to heaven (DN 31), such as:
AN 4.55 wrote:Husband & wife, both of them
having conviction,
being responsive,
being restrained,
living by the Dhamma,
addressing each other
with loving words:
they benefit in manifold ways.
To them comes bliss.
Their enemies are dejected
when both are in tune in virtue.
Having followed the Dhamma here in this world,
both in tune in precepts & practices,
they delight in the world of the devas,
enjoying the pleasures they desire.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The wise don't want those who need attachment to suffer from depression. :console:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

Tennok wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 am
Without reincarnation, Damma is like a boring, indie movie about compassion, connectivity and welness. With reincarnation included, it's a real drama, a blockbuster. :popcorn:

Od course, there is a problem with anatta, and the paradox of what actually reincarnates, but hey, you can't have everything. :smile:
"Reincarnation" is a Tibetan Buddhist concept.

https://www.dalailama.com/messages/reti ... ncarnation


:anjali:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Tennok wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 am ... If it's just one life, why would you need Nibbana in the first place?
...
We don't. We can all live a miserable life. Up to us.
Tennok wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 am ...
If I just want to end suffering in this life, I can simply commit suicide. In case of one life existence, it doesn't make much difference. I will die anyway, becouse of ilness, accident, or old age/natural causes. I can just live my animalistic, sensual life and crawl my way to the end somehow. The Damma seems to be a less necessary tactic in such "one time" world.
...
If there's no afterlife, commiting suicide won't end suffering either. Suffering will last to the very end of life (deep suffering for the case).
Tennok wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 am ... Damma is like a saw, smuggled into the prison in a basket. It's a tool to help us in our Great Escape. The only tool...
Ok, but this applies also for the case where there's no afterlife.

Thanks for your reply and thoughts you are sharing. :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Tennok wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:37 am If I just want to end suffering in this life, I can simply commit suicide. In case of one life existence, it doesn't make much difference. I will die anyway, because of illness, accident, or old age/natural causes. I can just live my animalistic, sensual life and crawl my way to the end somehow. The Dhamma seems to be a less necessary tactic in such "one time" world.
exactly
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by asahi »

On annihilation of the self :

At that time the Blessed One said to the monks: “The existence of what is the cause, by clinging to what, by being fettered and attached to what, by seeing what as the self, do living beings have a view like this and speak like this: 'If the gross body made of the four elements [after death] is destroyed and becomes nothing, that is called the proper annihilation of the self; again if the self of the sensual sphere after death is destroyed and becomes nothing, that is called the proper annihilation of the self; again if the self of the material sphere after death is destroyed and becomes nothing, that is called the proper annihilation of the self; if having attained the sphere of [infinite] space … the sphere of [infinite] consciousness … the sphere of nothingness … the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception the self after death is destroyed and becomes nothing, that is called the proper annihilation of the self?'”
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Re: What is your strategy for attaining Sotapattimagga & phala?

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:34 am For example, in his commentary on DN 1, Buddhaghosa appeared to change the definition of "annihilationism" from the view a "self" dies found in DN 1; to the view there is no reincarnation.
To assert the annihilation of an existing being (self) and hence inferred it as no reincarnation was probably meant by Buddhaghosa .
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

asahi wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:42 am On annihilation of the self
living beings have a view like this and speak like this
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammavamsa »

Sharing

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammavamsa wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:56 am Sharing
Sounds speculative but i suppose reassuring for eternalists. :heart:
And how, bhikkhus, do some hold back? Devas and humans enjoy being, delight in being, are satisfied with being. When Dhamma is taught to them for the cessation of being, their minds do not enter into it or acquire confidence in it or settle upon it or become resolved upon it. Thus, bhikkhus, do some hold back.

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