the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:10 am
AN 3.33 wrote:“Therefore, Sāriputta, you should train yourselves thus: (1) ‘There will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to this conscious body; (2) there will be no I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit in regard to all external objects; and (3) we will enter and dwell in that liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, through which there is no more I-making, mine-making, and underlying tendency to conceit for one who enters and dwells in it.’ It is in this way, Sāriputta, that you should train yourselves.
:buddha1:

Thus it would appear not simply to be a petty matter of pronoun policing.
OK. So you think that DooDoot's isolation of Ceisiwr's usage of personal pronouns had merit? I would hope not, wanting to think you a sensible man. What should Ceisiwr have used instead of pronouns? What was it if not policing pronouns, the very same thing that the much-maligned Canadian scholar Jordan Peterson once objected to in Canadian Law?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:57 pm my past
There is no "my" past. The Buddha taught in SN 22.79:
Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’
A puthujjana Neo-Con lusting for Islamic blood cannot understand the above. The idea of "my past" is a "past abode". It is selfing.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:19 am OK. So you think that DooDoot's isolation of Ceisiwr's usage of personal pronouns had merit?
The moderators here need to be careful of non-Buddhists subverting the Dhamma. The isolation of personal pronouns is 100% on topic, as follows:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

“When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.


https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:19 am OK. So you think that DooDoot's isolation of Ceisiwr's usage of personal pronouns had merit?
I saw a lot of I-making and personal narrative in Ceisiwr's post. It is the identification as [x] and the projecting of that self through time which was the problem, moreso than the pronouns used to communicate it. The pronouns are merely a symptom of that underlying malaise.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:21 amThe isolation of personal pronouns is 100% on topic
I think that is beyond absurd, ridiculous, and any other word one could think of, and feel free to isolate my "I" and "my" in a response post. Pronouns and reflexive pronouns are not self view.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:24 am The pronouns are merely a symptom of that underlying malaise.
In SN 22.79, which is about "past abodes", the Buddha separates the ignorant personal pronouns from the real mere five aggregates.

Obviously, there are posters here that have no interest in abandoning self-view.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:25 am
DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:21 amThe isolation of personal pronouns is 100% on topic
I think that is beyond absurd, ridiculous, and any other word one could think of, and feel free to isolate my "I" and "my" in a response post. Pronouns and reflexive pronouns are not self view.
Identitarian attack warning. The Dhamma is about abandoning self-views, which is the only way to end "birth" (aka "rebirth" for the unlearned).
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
BrokenBones
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by BrokenBones »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:24 am Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:19 am OK. So you think that DooDoot's isolation of Ceisiwr's usage of personal pronouns had merit?
I saw a lot of I-making and personal narrative in it. It is the identification as [x] and the projecting of that self through time which was the problem, moreso than the pronouns used to communicate it. The pronouns are merely a symptom of that underlying malaise.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Maybe we could be provided with a list of acceptable pronouns and the number of times we are allowed to use them so we don't create 'problems'.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:24 am Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:19 am OK. So you think that DooDoot's isolation of Ceisiwr's usage of personal pronouns had merit?
I saw a lot of I-making and personal narrative in Ceisiwr's post. It is the identification as [x] and the projecting of that self through time which was the problem, moreso than the pronouns used to communicate it. The pronouns are merely a symptom of that underlying malaise.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"I saw a lot of I-making". My post was no more "I-making" than yours is here.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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DooDoot
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:28 am Maybe we could be provided with a list of acceptable pronouns and the number of times we are allowed to use them so we don't create 'problems'.
irrelevent. the topic discussed is Ceisiwr thinks the Buddha recollected his personal past lives where as Doot thinks the Buddha recollected each time his mind in the past ignorantly adhered to an aggregate as self.

Ceisiwr believes there was a past where "he was a gay boy"; that this was "my/his" past. Doot believes there were only aggregates in the past and no real "Ceisiwr-Atman-Self"

Ceisiwr's belief appears 100% the opposite of what SN 22.79 teaches; which is to remove the "I" from those past aggregates.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:30 am "I saw a lot of I-making". My post was no more "I-making" than yours is here.
Really? Explain the "self"-narrative that "I" was telling, project "my" self throughout time.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

This sphere disagrees that the use of the pronoun "I" is in itself indicative of "I-making".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:35 am Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:30 am "I saw a lot of I-making". My post was no more "I-making" than yours is here.
Really? Explain the "self"-narrative that "I" was telling, project "my" self throughout time.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I don't actually think you were doing that. You seem to have missed my point. Your use of the word "I" is no more indicative of "I-making" than when I used it. See, there it is again. What was being referred to in my post was the inability of DooDoot to offend me, and how poisonous he is by attempting cheap shots. That and his apparently ingrained irrationality. By your standard, when the Buddha said he was not offended by insults this would be a nimitta of "I-making". It really is silly.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:35 am This sphere disagrees that the use of the pronoun "I" is in itself indicative of "I-making".
These seems like empty words - devoid of any meaning. significance or relevance.

Can you explain your position with recourse to the suttas, perhaps?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:38 am Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:35 am This sphere disagrees that the use of the pronoun "I" is in itself indicative of "I-making".
These seems like empty words - devoid of any meaning. significance or relevance.

Can you explain your position with recourse to the suttas, perhaps?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Once again, you seem to have missed the point. I was drawing attention to how silly it gets when we abandon conventional language. Those who go to great lengths to avoid talking about "I" often have zero understanding of anatta and only the most superficial understanding of Dhamma. Those who jump on the use of pronouns in another's sentence are usually the same. The Buddha used "I". Arahants use "I". Using language isn't the problem, such as referring to "myself" in the past or future.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:41 am Using language isn't the problem
Correct.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:41 am ...nor is referring to "myself" in the past or future.
Incorrect. See MN1 for more details.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:42 am Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:41 am Using language isn't the problem
Correct.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 1:41 am ...nor is referring to "myself" in the past or future.
Incorrect.

Metta,
Paul. :)
The Buddha referred to himself in the past. "When I was an unawakened bodhisatta". Using "I did" or "I will" is not I-making.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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