The suttas don’t teach that the aggregates arise and fall away, only coming together temporarily, and that this isn’t the constant state of things?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:09 pmBut that isn't "rebirth". IMO the idea of "moment-to-moment rebirth" is an incoherent fudge, and not something supported by the suttas.
the great rebirth debate
Re: the great rebirth debate
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Re: the great rebirth debate
But rise and fall isn't "rebirth".Rambutan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:13 pmThe suttas don’t teach that the aggregates arise and fall away, only coming together temporarily, and that this isn’t the constant state of things?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:09 pmBut that isn't "rebirth". IMO the idea of "moment-to-moment rebirth" is an incoherent fudge, and not something supported by the suttas.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
The momentary arising and ceasing is also birth and death.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:16 pmBut rise and fall isn't "rebirth".Rambutan wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:13 pmThe suttas don’t teach that the aggregates arise and fall away, only coming together temporarily, and that this isn’t the constant state of things?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:09 pm
But that isn't "rebirth". IMO the idea of "moment-to-moment rebirth" is an incoherent fudge, and not something supported by the suttas.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
I still don't see how rebirth is compatible with the anatta doctrine. I've seen various attempts to explain this, but don't find any of them compelling.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
The anatta doctrine does not say self-view does not arise from ignorance.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:57 am I still don't see how rebirth is compatible with the anatta doctrine. I've seen various attempts to explain this, but don't find any of them compelling.
I already started a topic on this about "can rebirth occur without self-view".
The suttas always say "a being" ("satta") is "upapajjati" ( commonly translated as "reborn").
We have discussed this many times over many lifetimes.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
No, I wouldn't say we have discussed it. Not in any meaningful sense.DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:00 amThe anatta doctrine does not say self-view does not arise from ignorance.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:57 am I still don't see how rebirth is compatible with the anatta doctrine. I've seen various attempts to explain this, but don't find any of them compelling.
I already started a topic on this about "can rebirth occur without self-view".
The suttas always say "a being" ("satta") is "upapajjati" ( commonly translated as "reborn").
We have discussed this many times over many lifetimes.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: the great rebirth debate
The suttas say "beings" ("satta") are "reborn" (translation of "upapajjati").Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:15 am No, I wouldn't say we have discussed it. Not in any meaningful sense.
The suttas say "beings" are "self-views" (SN 5.10; SN 23.2).
Therefore, it appears what is subject to "upapajjati" is "self-views".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
As always, you're lecturing, and not discussing.DooDoot wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:17 amThe suttas say "beings" ("satta") are "reborn" (translation of "upapajjati").Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:15 am No, I wouldn't say we have discussed it. Not in any meaningful sense.
The suttas say "beings" are "self-views" (SN 5.10; SN 23.2).
Therefore, it appears what is subject to "upapajjati" is "self-views".
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: the great rebirth debate
What's to discuss? Instead, just read the suttas posted and make a decision about what you choose to believe.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
Could you explain why you think those two suttas say that a "being" (satta) is a "self view"? The word can be both the past participle of a verb or a noun, and I'm interested in why you read it one way rather than another.
Re: the great rebirth debate
I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
Buddha did not teach there is no self
nor did he teach there is a self
Re: the great rebirth debate
Any essential thing identified as a self (atman) would by definition be unconditioned, and therefore could not be what is reborn, because it could only take rebirth conditionally (in relation to things around it, and due to causes). In other words, it is because nowhere can a self be identified, that rebirth can occur.mjaviem wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:04 pm I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Please, tell me what is that that is reborn, that re-arises after having ceased completely? I would say only birth can occurRambutan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:30 pmAny essential thing identified as a self (atman) would by definition be unconditioned, and therefore could not be what is reborn. In other words, if is precisely because nowhere can a self be identified, that rebirth can occur.mjaviem wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:04 pm I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
I think of it like each day we sleep and wake
which is a cycle, like death