the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dhammavamsa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammavamsa »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 7:38 am
mjaviem wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 1:20 pm You shouldn't relax...
Jesus said: "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:30) - salvation via faith alone - belief in 'rebirth' divorced from kamma. Preaching 'rebirth' together with preaching sex with prostitutes. Protestant Buddhism. :smile:
How is rebirth correlated to prostitution???

Please stop putting Jesus into Buddhist forum. It is totally two different belief system. Stop belittling other religions.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Dhammavamsa wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:45 pm How is rebirth correlated to prostitution???
Possibly u missed the discussion.

There was at least one individual on this forum preaching rebirth but saying having sex with prostitutes is OK.

The suttas clearly say having sex with prostitutes is a downfall; as was previously quoted.
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sakka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sakka »

Samyutta Nikaya 22.79
At Savatthi. "Monks, any brahmans or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them. Which five? When recollecting, 'I was one with such a form in the past,' one is recollecting just form. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a feeling in the past,' one is recollecting just feeling. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a perception in the past,' one is recollecting just perception. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such mental fabrications in the past,' one is recollecting just mental fabrications. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a consciousness in the past,' one is recollecting just consciousness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives.

I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion:

'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there.

There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

I would like to see new explanations about rebirth rather than bringing to our attention english translations of the same Suttas (MN 36, SN 22.79, etc.) over and over. It only makes me more and more agnostic about the topic.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
sakka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sakka »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:27 pm I would like to see new explanations about rebirth rather than bringing to our attention english translations of the same Suttas (MN 36, SN 22.79, etc.) over and over. It only makes me more and more agnostic about the topic.
Meditate and realize it oneself? :shrug:

The Buddha teaches how to quench conscioussness itself...

Samsara is constant activity from birth to death in various destinations: hell, animal, ghost, human and deva. Conscioussness itself will never cease and Samsara will also never cease. One can't find the true escape without a Buddha. The rounds of rebirth are endless.

Based on ones actions, behaviour, preferences, desires, morality and the character (and so much more) one has in Samsara one gets a rebirth according to these things.

Why do animals have better and more developed senses like for instance smell, sight, hearing and so on, than humans?
Studying the Buddha's teaching this makes perfect sense, how someone very sensual and immoral (by deliberately hurting others) or plain stupid could take rebirth in the animal womb or as a ghost.

Since Samsara has no beginning and no end, and there's no creator how could mosquitoes that kill nearly one million humans every year even exist? Remember no beginning no end and no creator. This might sound silly but In the past way way back in the aeons maybe there were humans behaving like vampires doing really awful stuff? The actual conscioussness filled with the desire for blood doesn't die but continues and takes on a much lower life form... :shrug: (This is just a speculation why insects desiring blood even exist in the first place).

Since no one can quench their conscioussness, ignorance, desires and everything else one is bound for rebirth based on ones kamma - The intentional actions based on desires etc.. There you go! :D

Tired of rebirth and constant activity? Study the Buddha's teaching :)
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:27 pm I would like to see new explanations about rebirth
Mars in a Past Life…
youtu.be/s6fWUA6_odc?t=188

~
sakka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sakka »

SN 15.3
Assu Sutta: Tears
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?"

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans."

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

sakka wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:30 pm SN 15.3
Assu Sutta: Tears

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
How can passion about rebirth cause the "dispassion" above? :shrug:

SN 22.99:
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "Monks, from an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, although beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.

"There comes a time when the great ocean evaporates, dries up, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.

"There comes a time when Sineru, king of mountains, is consumed with flame, is destroyed, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.

"There comes a time when the great earth is consumed with flame, is destroyed, & does not exist. But for beings — as long as they are hindered by ignorance, fettered by craving, transmigrating & wandering on — I don't say that there is an end of suffering & stress.

"Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He assumes feeling to be the self...

"He assumes perception to be the self...

"He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self...

"He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

"He keeps running around and circling around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"But a well-instructed, disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for people of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma — doesn't assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

"He doesn't assume feeling to be the self...

"He doesn't assume perception to be the self...

"He doesn't assume fabrications to be the self...

"He doesn't assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

"He doesn't run around or circle around that very form... that very feeling... that very perception... those very fabrications... that very consciousness. He is set loose from form, set loose from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... set loose from consciousness. He is set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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sakka wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:10 pm Samyutta Nikaya 22.79
At Savatthi. "Monks, any brahmans or contemplatives who recollect their manifold past lives all recollect the five clinging-aggregates, or one among them. Which five? When recollecting, 'I was one with such a form in the past,' one is recollecting just form. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a feeling in the past,' one is recollecting just feeling. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a perception in the past,' one is recollecting just perception. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such mental fabrications in the past,' one is recollecting just mental fabrications. Or when recollecting, 'I was one with such a consciousness in the past,' one is recollecting just consciousness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato
The translation above appears confusing to me because the translation appears to say "past lives are merely aggregates & are not-self". :? How can not-self past lives be "my past lives"? :shrug: If these past past lives are not "my" past lives, what are they? :shrug:

The relevant Pali is "nivasa", which literally means "homes", often translated as "dwelling", "abodes" or "settlings".

Possibly Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation makes more sense. :smile:
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, those ascetics and brahmins who recollect their manifold past abodes all recollect the five aggregates subject to clinging or a certain one among them. What five?

When recollecting thus, bhikkhus: ‘I had such form in the past,’ it is just form that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a feeling in the past,’ it is just feeling that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such a perception in the past,’ it is just perception that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such volitional formations in the past,’ it is just volitional formations that one recollects. When recollecting: ‘I had such consciousness in the past,’ it is just consciousness that one recollects.

“Therefore, bhikkhus, any kind of form whatsoever … Any kind of feeling whatsoever … Any kind of perception whatsoever … Any kind of volitional formations whatsoever … Any kind of consciousness whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all consciousness should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“This is called, bhikkhus, a noble disciple who dismantles and does not build up; who abandons and does not cling; who scatters and does not amass; who extinguishes and does not kindle.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/bodhi
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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

I still struggle to understand how rebirth is compatible with anatta. Rebirth implies something that continues on, or something that reappears. But the aggregates are described as being transient, conditional and not-self, so there is nothing in them to continue or reappear. :shrug:
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BrokenBones
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by BrokenBones »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:06 am I still struggle to understand how rebirth is compatible with anatta. Rebirth implies something that continues on, or something that reappears. But the aggregates are described as being transient, conditional and not-self, so there is nothing in them to continue or reappear. :shrug:
I like to think of death as merely a quick dip into the deepest and most radical sleep there is... on awakening...it's just a continuation... like we do every night.

Most Buddhist's have no problem with an anatta as a day to day principle and happily accept it going to sleep and waking up.

All death is, is a change of clothes and habitat.

Imagine being put under to undergo radical plastic surgery. You wake up... you're a different person, they've moved you to a different hospital and you've won the lottery (or been made bankrupt)...
And to top it all, the anaesthetic was so strong you've lost your memory.

People can accept anatta after a good nights sleep... they know that no self can be found... why should death (sleep) and rebirth (waking up in the morning) be any different?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:06 am I still struggle to understand how rebirth is compatible with anatta. Rebirth implies something that continues on, or something that reappears. But the aggregates are described as being transient, conditional and not-self, so there is nothing in them to continue or reappear. :shrug:
I must say I’ve never understood this argument. To me rebirth and anatta go easily together.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sakka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by sakka »

How can passion about rebirth cause the "dispassion" above? :shrug:
I don't understand what you mean. Don't you understand the context of the whole passage above? No one can escape rebirth without The Buddha so you're pretty much bound to rebirth regardless what you believe. If you don't believe in rebirth or do believe in rebirth doesn't matter - it will still happen. Not being able to quench desires, ignorance etc. and the burden of always ”being a being” and becoming, always identifying with the 5 aggregates etc.
That is why a stream-enterer has a maximum of 7 lives left in Samsara. Dispassion regarding rebirth comes from all the suffering one has gone through. This is so evident and clear that I don't understand what you're hinting at with your question.
The translation above appears confusing to me because the translation appears to say "past lives are merely aggregates & are not-self". :? How can not-self past lives be "my past lives"? :shrug: If these past past lives are not "my" past lives, what are they? :shrug:

The relevant Pali is "nivasa", which literally means "homes", often translated as "dwelling", "abodes" or "settlings".
There is nothing confusing at all since there is a self-doer.

You're taking the stance like you have already realized anatta (and dukkha, anicca) since the Buddha teach of these three characteristics in all conditioned phenomena.

Is Buddha-Dhamma, that started as an oral tradition (books were written down much later) a etymologically semantic theory were one has to find definitions to certain words and quarrel over these things? :shrug: :reading: :stirthepot: :pig:

Or is Buddha-Dhamma the best path to practice and the supreme description of ALL conditioned phenomena? :bow:

Please read the notes to this Sutta. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .niza.html

AN 6.38 Attakārī Sutta: The Self-Doer
Then a certain brahman approached the Blessed One; having approached the Blessed One, he exchanged friendly greetings. After pleasant conversation had passed between them, he sat to one side. Having sat to one side, the brahman spoke to the Blessed One thus:
“Venerable Gotama, I am one of such a doctrine, of such a view: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer.’”[1]
“I have not, brahman, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself [2] — say: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’? What do you think, brahmin, is there an element or principle of initiating or beginning an action?”[3]
“Just so, Venerable Sir.”
“When there is an element of initiating, are initiating beings [4] clearly discerned?”
“Just so, Venerable Sir.”
“So, brahmin, when there is the element of initiating, initiating beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. [5]
“What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of exertion [6] ... is there an element of effort [7] ... is there an element of steadfastness [8] ... is there an element of persistence [9] ... is there an element of endeavoring?” [10]
“Just so, Venerable Sir.”
“When there is an element of endeavoring, are endeavoring beings clearly discerned?”
“Just so, Venerable Sir.”
“So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’?”
“Superb, Venerable Gotama! Superb, Venerable Gotama! Venerable Gotama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what had been concealed, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark: ‘Those who have eyes see forms!’ Just so, the Venerable Gotama has illuminated the Dhamma in various ways. I go to Venerable Gotama as refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the assembly of monks. From this day, for as long as I am endowed with breath, let Venerable Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge.”
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

No life on a barren desert. And what a perplexing matter to see the stem of a flower grow somewhere there. Until we learn plants grow from seeds under the right conditions and it happened that, in that particular site, life was possible, since everything was in place for the stem of that flower to grow.

It seems no mind can grow there in that plant. And what a perplexing matter to see a mind growing in a human's body. What have we learned about the arising of a mind in human's since conception? What do we believe?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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