the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

I think a good way to explain Dhamma in these times in western world could be to talk for the case where there is no rebirth because these are times where many people don't believe in rebirth or even in an afterlife. Don't you think? And talking for the case where there is rebirth to groups of people believing in rebirth. Did the Buddha talked in such a way at his time? I think at his time the urgency to practice was related to a unique opportunity along countless rebirths but at times of no belief in rebirth the urgency comes on having only one chance. What do you think?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:02 pm What do you think?
well if people cannot handle the truth, then they should not practice Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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mikenz66 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:11 amIt's not as if you're going to be kicked out of Buddhism over your interpretation of the precepts.
Buddhism is not necessarily the Dhamma. The suttas say: the Dhamma itself protects those who practise Dhamma; Dhamma and adhamma don't have the same fruit; Dhamma leads to happy states and adhamma leads to the pits of hell. Just because some addicts bow to Buddhist monks, such as is very common in Thailand, does not mean the Dhamma protects them. This is the difference between the 'here-&-now Buddhist' (called 'secular' by revilers & heretics) and the 'reincarnationist Buddhist'. The H&N Buddhist fears the hell they see here-&-now with their own eyes. While the 'reincarnationist Buddhist' often engages in negligence; believing their magical faith will save them in a future life. What the Buddha said in AN 3.61 about the past obviously also applies about the magical future. :ugeek:
Having approached the brahmans & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by what was done in the past?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of what was done in the past. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of what was done in the past.' When one falls back on what was done in the past as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my first righteous refutation of those brahmans & contemplatives who hold to such teachings, such views.

AN 3.61
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:44 am so you really dont have to be near-perfect to attain the fruit of stream winning. even 'addicts' can get a foot in the door.
"stream-entry" is a taste of here & now Nibbana rather than a foot in the door of an imaginary heaven in the sky with St Peter as gatekeeper on the door.

the above post expresses exactly what i said, namely, the negligent believing they will gain an imagined benefit in an unknown future, while in this life they fall into the pits of hell, defilement & depravity.
pitithefool wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:32 pm If one takes a drink for the purpose of social interaction and it doesn't lead to harm, are they in decline?
pity the fool that pities the fool :|
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plabit
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:20 amBuddhism is not necessarily the Dhamma. The suttas say: the Dhamma itself protects those who practise Dhamma; Dhamma and adhamma don't have the same fruit; Dhamma leads to happy states and adhamma leads to the pits of hell. Just because some addicts bow to Buddhist monks, such as is very common in Thailand, does not mean the Dhamma protects them. This is the difference between the 'here-&-now Buddhist' (called 'secular' by revilers & heretics) and the 'reincarnationist Buddhist'. The H&N Buddhist fears the hell they see here-&-now with their own eyes. While the 'reincarnationist Buddhist' often engages in negligence; believing their magical faith will save them in a future life. What the Buddha said in AN 3.61 about the past obviously also applies about the magical future. :ugeek:
To me your arugment here would be better suited toward arguing for a more minimalistic belief in rebirth than a rejection of it completely. In other words, for believing that humans are only reborn as humans in this world, and that this world is the hell. Therefore, one should seek to reach full enlightenment in this one life rather than rely on the concept of stream-entry to defer it, because one is utterly disgusted at the idea of coming back here to this world again. Belief in stream-entry as a deferred enlightenment after 7 lives, belief in rebirth as animals, etc. is in my estimation the problem you are isolating here, not belief in rebirth itself.
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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plabit wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:15 am To me your arugment here would be better suited toward arguing for a more minimalistic belief in rebirth than a rejection of it completely. In other words, for believing that humans are only reborn as humans in this world, and that this world is the hell. Therefore, one should seek to reach full enlightenment in this one life rather than rely on the concept of stream-entry to defer it, because one is utterly disgusted at the idea of coming back here to this world again. Belief in stream-entry as a deferred enlightenment after 7 lives, belief in rebirth as animals, etc. is in my estimation the problem you are isolating here, not belief in rebirth itself.
My argument here is related to what appears to be a misunderstanding and thus underestimation of kamma & rebirth; just as it appears to overestimate stream-entry. A friend was similar to this, who fanatically studied sutta but died from drug overdose or for whatever reason. The Buddha taught certain karma leads to rebirth in hell. The Buddha never taught committing such deadly karma but also having faith in him will lead to human or heavenly rebirth. You need to find a sutta that says those who simply "love" the Buddha also engage in major transgressions of the five precepts.

In Judaism, the tribes of Canaan were allegedly genocided in the name of God; in Christianity, people were burned in fire in the name of God, in Islam, Wahabbi terrorists today behead people in the name of God, and now we have addicts pushing the use of drugs in the name of the Lord Buddha. None of these things, in reality, is related to any type of salvation, both in this world or in the other world. The Lord Buddha was very clear about the destinations of various types of kamma. As the Bible says:
Do not be deceived. God [Dhamma] will not be made a fool. For a person will reap what he sows,

Galatians 6:7
Those who lived a sexually violent & abusive life, masked with pain numbing drug use, continue their violence & abuse when reviling the Noble. Such old kamma is difficult to mitigate. Descent into hell is difficult to stop. About 'hell', the Buddha taught:
I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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plabit
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:19 amAbout 'hell', the Buddha taught:
I have seen, bhikkhus, the hell named ‘Contact’s Sixfold Base.’ There whatever form one sees with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears with the ear … Whatever odour one smells with the nose … Whatever taste one savours with the tongue … Whatever tactile object one feels with the body … Whatever mental phenomenon one cognizes with the mind is undesirable, never desirable; unlovely, never lovely; disagreeable, never agreeable.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.135/en/bodhi
Sounds kind of like being triggered by everything.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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From the parallel:
At that time the Blessed One said to the monks: “There is extensive joy and extensive suffering. Why is that? There are six spheres of contact in hell. Living beings born in that hell encounter with the eye forms that are disagreeable and do not encounter agreeable forms, they encounter forms one would not like to think of and do not encounter forms one would like to think of, they encounter bad forms and do not encounter good forms. Because of this condition, their entire experience is one of worry and pain [for a long time].
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“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:19 am
MN136:
"When he says: 'It seems that one who abstains from killing living beings... has right view will always, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world,'[6] I do not concede that to him.
"When he says thus: 'It seems that one who kills living beings... has wrong view, will always, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell,' I do not concede that to him.
17. (iii) "Now there is the person who has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view. And on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.[11] But (perhaps) the good kamma producing his happiness was done by him earlier, or the good kamma producing his happiness was done by him later, or right view was undertaken and completed by him at the time of his death. And that was why, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappeared in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. But since he has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view, he will feel the result of that here and now, or in his next rebirth, or in some subsequent existence.
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by plabit »

pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:41 pm
DooDoot wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:19 am
MN136:
"When he says: 'It seems that one who abstains from killing living beings... has right view will always, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world,'[6] I do not concede that to him.
"When he says thus: 'It seems that one who kills living beings... has wrong view, will always, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell,' I do not concede that to him.
17. (iii) "Now there is the person who has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view. And on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.[11] But (perhaps) the good kamma producing his happiness was done by him earlier, or the good kamma producing his happiness was done by him later, or right view was undertaken and completed by him at the time of his death. And that was why, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappeared in a happy destination, in the heavenly world. But since he has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view, he will feel the result of that here and now, or in his next rebirth, or in some subsequent existence.
meaning?
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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plabit wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:52 pm
meaning?
The point I'm trying to make is that Right View is very important in terms of kamma and rebirth.
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:54 pm The point I'm trying to make is that Right View is very important in terms of kamma and rebirth.
18. (iv) "Now there is the person who has abstained from killing living beings here... has had right view. And on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the states of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell. MN136

obviously mundane right view, when not strong enough, can't save from serious past deeds, regardless of how many suttas one recites

for example, a person lives an unwholesome life, ends up in dukkha, joins Dhamma Wheel, learns mundane (moral) right view, but continues to be punished internally by dukkha

returning to what i originally posted, it is not easy to be free from fruits of past deeds. it requires time & endurance
pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:54 pm Right View
its 'right view', without capital letters. the 'right view' in MN 136 is not supramundane. Refer to AN 10.211, for example, which lists what the 10 wholesome kammas are.
They have right view, an undistorted perspective: ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is this world and the other world. There is obligation to mother and father. There are beings spontaneously arisen. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe this world and the other world after realizing it with their own insight.’

AN 10.211
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

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DooDoot wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:45 am
obviously mundane right view, when not strong enough, can't save from serious past deeds, regardless of how many suttas one recites

for example, a person lives an unwholesome life, ends up in dukkha, joins Dhamma Wheel, learns mundane (moral) right view, but continues to be punished internally by dukkha
pitithefool wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:54 pm
Ok what is the distinction between mundane and supramundane right view? I'm not used to making such a distinction. Are all of the "right views" in MN 9 supramundane? Or by mundane right view are you referring to kammic action and result right view?

Are you saying that when supramundane right view arises, on its own, it is no longer possible to be reborn in a lower realm?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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plabit wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:56 am Ignorance is ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, and no-self is not one of the 4 Noble Truths. In fact the only connection of anatta to the 4 Noble Truths is this: 1st Noble Truth asserts rebirth, and if there is rebirth, then you can't be the body, thus the body is not-self. That's the only connection to the 4 Noble Truths at all for anatta.
How so?
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Re: 'drink and drugs that cause carelessness'

Post by DooDoot »

pitithefool wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pm Ok what is the distinction between mundane and supramundane right view?
oh dear. refer to MN 117
pitithefool wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pm I'm not used to making such a distinction.
because Dhamma is not fully known or learned. the Buddha praised right study
pitithefool wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pmAre all of the "right views" in MN 9 supramundane?
no. The Wholesome and the Unwholesome is mundane because it can generate suffering if clung to
pitithefool wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pmOr by mundane right view are you referring to kammic action and result right view?
yes, per MN 117
pitithefool wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:16 pmAre you saying that when supramundane right view arises... it is no longer possible to be reborn in a lower realm?
indeed. "supramundane" is the Pali "lokuttara", which literally means "above the world". it is beyond any "world", such as heaven, hell, human, etc

Buddhism 101. lucky u have teachers here & are teachable :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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