the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:59 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:58 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:57 pm It’s in the first Noble truth.
life is stress, anxiety
Yes.
anxiety rather than pain
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:59 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:58 pm

life is stress, anxiety
Yes.
anxiety rather than pain
Life is also full of pain.

“Mendicants, there are these three forms of suffering. What three? The suffering inherent in painful feeling; the suffering inherent in conditions; and the suffering inherent in perishing. These are the three forms of suffering.”

Conditioned existence is dukkha. Only Nibbana is free from all dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Saṃsāra is painful


hence Nirvana is desirable


otherwise I would not place much emphasis on pain
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:04 pm Saṃsāra is painful


hence Nirvana is desirable


otherwise I would not place much emphasis on pain
Saṃsāra is total misery whist nibbāna is not, yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:05 pm Saṃsāra is total misery whist nibbāna is not, yes.
misery is a better translation
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:05 pm Saṃsāra is total misery whist nibbāna is not, yes.
misery is a better translation
Fine. Misery includes both mental stress and physical pain.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:10 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:05 pm Saṃsāra is total misery whist nibbāna is not, yes.
misery is a better translation
Fine. Misery includes both mental stress and physical pain.
pain is not a psychological thing


whereas dukkha is a psychological thing
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:10 pm
cappuccino wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:06 pm

misery is a better translation
Fine. Misery includes both mental stress and physical pain.
pain is not a psychological thing


whereas dukkha is a psychological thing
Rebirth is quite literal.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:10 pm Rebirth is quite literal.
I know…
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:10 pm Misery includes both mental stress and physical pain.
dukkha is also pain


since dukkha is the difficulty of life
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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“But, bhikkhus, (1) when an instructed noble disciple meets with pain, he reflects thus: ‘This pain that I have met is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change.’ He thus understands it as it really is.
- AN 8.6
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:48 pm - AN 8.6
K
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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At one time Venerable Sāriputta was staying in the land of the Magadhans near the little village of Nālaka. Then the wanderer Sāmaṇḍakāni went up to Venerable Sāriputta and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, Sāmaṇḍakāni sat down to one side, and said to Sāriputta:

“Reverend Sāriputta, what is happiness and what is suffering?”

“Rebirth is suffering, reverend, no rebirth is happiness. When there is rebirth, you can expect this kind of suffering. Cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, and urination. Contact with fire, clubs, and knives. And relatives and friends get together and annoy you. When there is rebirth, this is the kind of suffering you can expect. When there is no rebirth, you can expect this kind of happiness. No cold, heat, hunger, thirst, defecation, or urination. No contact with fire, clubs, or knives. And relatives and friends don’t get together and annoy you. When there is no rebirth, this is the kind of happiness you can expect.”
https://suttacentral.net/an10.65/en/sujato
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Are there instructions for stream entry?

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:14 am the recalcitrant are dismissing the dependent origination and advocate only dependent cessation .
"rebirth" is not mentioned in dependent origination (which the Buddha called the "wrong path")

as for the Buddha, he advocated only dependent cessation, which he called "the right path"...

refer to SN 12.3 :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by asahi »

In the dependent origination , the six sense bases came to be after namarupa . The right path cover mundane right view . With the condition of namarupa , the six sense bases came to be , there is not possible for "physical" bases appear in DO if all links are mental aspects . And mental conditioning without having physicality are not possible .
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