the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Are there instructions for stream entry?

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:58 am Someone who doesn't accept the Buddha's teaching on kamma and rebirth has wrong view...
The Buddha never appeared to use any word that literally means 'rebirth'.
The Buddha never, afaik, used a term that could be translated as "rebirth".

Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu
Regardless, MN 117 clearly says the kamma doctrine leading to other worlds is not of Noble Path; thus not leading to stream-entry.
Thanissaro translation only wrote:"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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When was there ever a moment when you weren’t experiencing rebirth?
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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I wonder what literal rebirth believers think "beings reborn spontaneously" mean.
MN 117 | Sujato wrote:And what is wrong view?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, micchādiṭṭhi?

There’s no meaning in giving, sacrifice, or offerings. There’s no fruit or result of good and bad deeds. There’s no afterlife. There are no duties to mother and father. No beings are reborn spontaneously. And there’s no ascetic or brahmin who is well attained and practiced, and who describes the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’
‘Natthi dinnaṁ, natthi yiṭṭhaṁ, natthi hutaṁ, natthi sukatadukkaṭānaṁ kammānaṁ phalaṁ vipāko, natthi ayaṁ loko, natthi paro loko, natthi mātā, natthi pitā, natthi sattā opapātikā, natthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā ye imañca lokaṁ parañca lokaṁ sayaṁ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentī’ti—

This is wrong view.
ayaṁ, bhikkhave, micchādiṭṭhi.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rambutan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:02 pm When was there ever a moment when you weren’t experiencing rebirth?
What do you mean?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:16 pmI wonder what literal rebirth believers think "beings reborn spontaneously" mean.
IMO, "they" might say, "Deities don't proceed from the wombs of their deity mothers."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:27 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:16 pmI wonder what literal rebirth believers think "beings reborn spontaneously" mean.
IMO, "they" might say, "Deities don't proceed from the wombs of their deity mothers."
Oh, I see, didn't think of it, thanks. In any case, I think spontaneous could mean there's no process, that it's done out of nowhere so it shouldn't be said they are re-born but just born as in born out of nowhere.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:36 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:27 pm
mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:16 pmI wonder what literal rebirth believers think "beings reborn spontaneously" mean.
IMO, "they" might say, "Deities don't proceed from the wombs of their deity mothers."
Oh, I see, didn't think of it, thanks. In any case, I think spontaneous could mean there's no process, that it's done out of nowhere so it shouldn't be said they are re-born but just born as in born out of nowhere.
There is a process involved, it's just there was no pregnancy.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:40 pm There is a process involved, it's just there was no pregnancy.
Ok, meaning that although it seems there was no reason this is only apparent.

And I also wonder what literal rebirth believers think about "this world, the other wolrd".
MN 117 | B. Bodhi wrote: “And what, bhikkhus, is wrong view? ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is wrong view.
To me, "this world" means the following:
SN 35.84 | B. Bodhi wrote:At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Ānanda approached the Blessed One … and said to him: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the world, the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said ‘the world’?”

“Whatever is subject to disintegration, Ānanda, is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline. And what is subject to disintegration? The eye, Ānanda, is subject to disintegration, forms … eye-consciousness … eye-contact … whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition … that too is subject to disintegration. The ear is subject to disintegration … The mind is subject to disintegration … Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition … that too is subject to disintegration. Whatever is subject to disintegration, Ānanda, is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline.”
So the other world is the unconditioned and not the afterlife as some may believe. But people have they reasons, I'd be glad to hear those.
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Re: Are there instructions for stream entry?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:36 am There are multitudes of passages in the Canon where the Buddha mentions rebirth.
1. Whilst not relevant to this topic, there appears no literal word that means "rebirth" in Pali.

2. Regardless, as said, MN 117 says what is translated as "rebirth" is not related to the Noble Path for stream-entry.

3. When stream-entry is attained there is the view all becoming that arises ceases. Therefore, there is no belief in self.

4. Also, when a stream-enterer has satipatthana, the mind sees the five aggregates are not-self, which also ends personality view.

5. In meditation, the stream-enterer does not even have the thought: "my breath"; let alone the thought: "my rebirth".

6. The stream-enterer sees: "the body breathes" rather than "I breathe".

7. The suttas teach "a being" ("satta") is "reborn" (per common translation). "A being" is a self-view (SN 5.10).

8. Therefore, as said in many ways above, even if the Buddha taught "rebirth", it is not related to stream-entry.

:smile:

9. In summary, i appears the fervent believers in "rebirth" here do not even understand what "rebirth" is.

10. "Rebirth" is always the continuation of "self-view" and therefore has no compatibility to stream entry.
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Re: Are there instructions for stream entry?

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:23 pm No, both mundane and supramundane right view hold to the belief in rebirth.
No.

MN 117 says kamma & 'rebirth' is with effluents resulting in acquisitions (upadhi).

The term "acquisitions" ("upadhi") is "jati" ("birth"), per MN 26 and SN 12.66.

The Noble Path is without upadhi & jati, per SN 12.3.
At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the wrong path and the right path. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong path? With ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong path.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the right path? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of formations; with the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the right path.”

SN 12.3
Thanissaro appeared very wrong, even heretical, when he suggested there was a "paradox of becoming". :smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:00 pm So the other world is the unconditioned
Actually, the "other world" ("para loka") is not the unconditioned but, instead, other worlds such as heaven and hell.

I recall the Brahmin Vedas, before the Buddha, referred to the "other world" ("heaven"). The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, Section V, Verse 1.5.16 states:
There are indeed three worlds, the world of men, the world of the Manes and the world of the gods. This world of men is to be won through the son alone, and by no other rite; the world of the Manes through rites; and the world of the gods through meditation. The world of the gods is the best of the worlds. Therefore they praise meditation.
Buddha also seemed to use the term to refer the world of "hell", that is the outcome of wrong view and action, as follows:
Surveying the world with the eye of a Buddha, I saw beings with little dust in their eyes and with much dust in their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good qualities and with bad qualities, easy to teach and hard to teach, and some who dwelt seeing fear and blame in the other world.

https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi
The unconditioned is not "a world". The unconditioned is "lokuttara", which means: "beyond/transcending the world".

About the unconditioned, the suttas say:
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
:smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:17 pm
Rambutan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:02 pm When was there ever a moment when you weren’t experiencing rebirth?
What do you mean?
It’s happening constantly.
Who “you” were a moment ago is gone.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:26 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:17 pm
Rambutan wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:02 pm When was there ever a moment when you weren’t experiencing rebirth?
What do you mean?
It’s happening constantly.
Who “you” were a moment ago is gone.
So if that "you" is gone, what is "reborn"?
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:36 am
Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:26 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:17 pm

What do you mean?
It’s happening constantly.
Who “you” were a moment ago is gone.
So if that "you" is gone, what is "reborn"?
Every moment is the result of previous causes.
Since the conditions (cause) are nearly identical from moment to moment, what is experienced (result) from moment to moment is nearly identical, producing the illusion of a continuous self, even though there is nowhere a continuous self (atman) can be located.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:03 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:36 am
Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:26 am

It’s happening constantly.
Who “you” were a moment ago is gone.
So if that "you" is gone, what is "reborn"?
Every moment is the result of previous causes.
But that isn't "rebirth". IMO the idea of "moment-to-moment rebirth" is an incoherent fudge, and not something supported by the suttas.
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