the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:09 pm
Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:03 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:36 am

So if that "you" is gone, what is "reborn"?
Every moment is the result of previous causes.
But that isn't "rebirth". IMO the idea of "moment-to-moment rebirth" is an incoherent fudge, and not something supported by the suttas.
The suttas don’t teach that the aggregates arise and fall away, only coming together temporarily, and that this isn’t the constant state of things?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:13 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:09 pm
Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:03 pm
Every moment is the result of previous causes.
But that isn't "rebirth". IMO the idea of "moment-to-moment rebirth" is an incoherent fudge, and not something supported by the suttas.
The suttas don’t teach that the aggregates arise and fall away, only coming together temporarily, and that this isn’t the constant state of things?
But rise and fall isn't "rebirth".
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robertk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by robertk »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:16 pm
Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:13 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:09 pm

But that isn't "rebirth". IMO the idea of "moment-to-moment rebirth" is an incoherent fudge, and not something supported by the suttas.
The suttas don’t teach that the aggregates arise and fall away, only coming together temporarily, and that this isn’t the constant state of things?
But rise and fall isn't "rebirth".
The momentary arising and ceasing is also birth and death.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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I still don't see how rebirth is compatible with the anatta doctrine. I've seen various attempts to explain this, but don't find any of them compelling.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:57 am I still don't see how rebirth is compatible with the anatta doctrine. I've seen various attempts to explain this, but don't find any of them compelling.
The anatta doctrine does not say self-view does not arise from ignorance.

I already started a topic on this about "can rebirth occur without self-view".

The suttas always say "a being" ("satta") is "upapajjati" ( commonly translated as "reborn").

We have discussed this many times over many lifetimes. :smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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DooDoot wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:00 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:57 am I still don't see how rebirth is compatible with the anatta doctrine. I've seen various attempts to explain this, but don't find any of them compelling.
The anatta doctrine does not say self-view does not arise from ignorance.

I already started a topic on this about "can rebirth occur without self-view".

The suttas always say "a being" ("satta") is "upapajjati" ( commonly translated as "reborn").

We have discussed this many times over many lifetimes. :smile:
No, I wouldn't say we have discussed it. Not in any meaningful sense.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:15 am No, I wouldn't say we have discussed it. Not in any meaningful sense.
The suttas say "beings" ("satta") are "reborn" (translation of "upapajjati").

The suttas say "beings" are "self-views" (SN 5.10; SN 23.2).

Therefore, it appears what is subject to "upapajjati" is "self-views".
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:17 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:15 am No, I wouldn't say we have discussed it. Not in any meaningful sense.
The suttas say "beings" ("satta") are "reborn" (translation of "upapajjati").

The suttas say "beings" are "self-views" (SN 5.10; SN 23.2).

Therefore, it appears what is subject to "upapajjati" is "self-views".
As always, you're lecturing, and not discussing. :shrug:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:37 am As always, you're lecturing, and not discussing. :shrug:
What's to discuss? :shrug: Instead, just read the suttas posted and make a decision about what you choose to believe. :thanks:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:42 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:37 am As always, you're lecturing, and not discussing. :shrug:
What's to discuss? :shrug: Instead, just read the suttas posted and make a decision about what you choose to believe. :thanks:
Could you explain why you think those two suttas say that a "being" (satta) is a "self view"? The word can be both the past participle of a verb or a noun, and I'm interested in why you read it one way rather than another.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:04 pm since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth,
Buddha did not teach there is no self


nor did he teach there is a self
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:04 pm I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
Any essential thing identified as a self (atman) would by definition be unconditioned, and therefore could not be what is reborn, because it could only take rebirth conditionally (in relation to things around it, and due to causes). In other words, it is because nowhere can a self be identified, that rebirth can occur.
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

Rambutan wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:30 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:04 pm I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
Any essential thing identified as a self (atman) would by definition be unconditioned, and therefore could not be what is reborn. In other words, if is precisely because nowhere can a self be identified, that rebirth can occur.
Please, tell me what is that that is reborn, that re-arises after having ceased completely? I would say only birth can occur
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:34 pm Please, tell me what is … reborn
I think of it like each day we sleep and wake


which is a cycle, like death
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