the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Rambutan
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Rambutan »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:34 pm
Rambutan wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:30 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:04 pm I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
Any essential thing identified as a self (atman) would by definition be unconditioned, and therefore could not be what is reborn. In other words, if is precisely because nowhere can a self be identified, that rebirth can occur.
Please, tell me what is that that is reborn, that re-arises after having ceased completely? I would say only birth can occur

What Buddha taught was that everything arises as the result of previous conditions. It’s like series of chain-reactions.

You can think of it like frames on a strip of movie film, if each frame provided the cause for the next frame to occur.

What arises? The illusory experience of a continuous self.
Even right now, what you experience is purely the result of previous events.
Physiologically, The air you just inhaled went through your lungs and put oxygen into your blood. But the term “you” is used here as a matter of convenience. Even if your lungs were examined under a microscope, no “you” would be located there.
Psychologically, every thought creates the conditions for the next thought to arise.
If one argues that there is a self which is aware that thoughts come and go, or is aware of the body changing, one would have to establish where that self is located, or what it is. All that can be said is that there is awareness. Awareness cannot be refuted.
If one asks, “who possesses this awareness?” that simply presupposes that a “self” is required but doesn’t explain why. To the contrary, it is awareness that precludes the illusion of self. The self cannot be shown to exist anywhere, but awareness cannot be refuted.
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Rambutan wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:25 pm What Buddha taught was that everything arises as the result of previous conditions. It’s like series of chain-reactions.

You can think of it like frames on a strip of movie film, if each frame provided the cause for the next frame to occur.

What arises? The illusory experience of a continuous self.
Even right now, what you experience is purely the result of previous events.
Physiologically, The air you just inhaled went through your lungs and put oxygen into your blood. But the term “you” is used here as a matter of convenience. Even if your lungs were examined under a microscope, no “you” would be located there.
Psychologically, every thought creates the conditions for the next thought to arise.
If one argues that there is a self which is aware that thoughts come and go, or is aware of the body changing, one would have to establish where that self is located, or what it is. All that can be said is that there is awareness. Awareness cannot be refuted.
If one asks, “who possesses this awareness?” that simply presupposes that a “self” is required but doesn’t explain why. To the contrary, it is awareness that precludes the illusion of self. The self cannot be shown to exist anywhere, but awareness cannot be refuted.
Then I think we agree: Nothing is reborn, there's only birth, arising but not rearising.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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robertk wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:32 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:16 pm
Rambutan wrote: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:13 pm

The suttas don’t teach that the aggregates arise and fall away, only coming together temporarily, and that this isn’t the constant state of things?
But rise and fall isn't "rebirth".
The momentary arising and ceasing is also birth and death.
But each coming together of aggregates is unique, isn't it? Not the same thing continually re-arising.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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cappuccino wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:57 pm
mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:34 pm Please, tell me what is … reborn
I think of it like each day we sleep and wake


which is a cycle, like death
"Rebirth" of memories and habits?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:04 am "Rebirth" of memories and habits?
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alicem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:04 pm I think the only thing that can be re-born is a self, the essence of that thing and, since the Buddha taught there is no self there can not be re-birth, only arising (and ceasing) but not re-arising since what ceased did it for good, only new things can arise (according to specific conditions). Re-arising is only for someone who believes in selves, that things have selves that keep going on after cessation.
It is rebirth because the mental continuum (viññana sotam) which has accumulated kamma from countless previous existences has been embodied as a new name & form (nāmarūpa). If cessation were this simple then there would be no need for Nibbana, we'd just have to wait 60 or so years.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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alicem wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:53 am It is rebirth because the mental continuum (viññana sotam) which has accumulated kamma from countless previous existences has been embodied as a new name & form (nāmarūpa). If cessation were this simple then there would be no need for Nibbana, we'd just have to wait 60 or so years.
You know what? I'm not going to argue. If you want to believe there's some mental continuum that keeps going on and we can identify with, that's fine. I think what we all agree it's that the Buddha taught kamma-vipaka and this teaching is what really matters.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:56 pm If you want to believe
the teaching is what it is
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 12:44 am
mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 11:56 pm If you want to believe
the teaching is what it is
Mental continuum is not a teaching of the Buddha, it's not in the suttas.

But I'm not here to argue. :candle: Just let's work hard to do the wholesome and get rid of the unwholesome, it can only bring peace to us and others
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:00 am
I recalled many past lives; that is, one birth, two births, three… four… five… ten… twenty… thirty… forty… fifty… one hundred… one thousand… one hundred thousand births, many eons of universal contraction, many eons of universal expansion, many eons of universal expansion and contraction –

‘There, such was my name, such was my clan, such was my appearance, such was my food, such was my experience of pleasure and pain, such was the ending of my lifespan. When I fell from there, I arose over there; there, such was my name… such was the ending of my lifespan. When I fell from there, I arose here.’ In this way I remember many past lives, in every characteristic and detail.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:00 am Mental continuum is not a teaching of the Buddha, it's not in the suttas.
Yes, it appears, so. The term "vinnanasota" appears only found in DN 28, spoken by Sariputta (who had no psychic powers). DN 28 says:
1.5. Attainments of Vision
1.5. Dassanasamāpattidesanā

And moreover, sir, how the Buddha teaches the attainments of vision is unsurpassable.

Aparaṁ pana, bhante, etadānuttariyaṁ, yathā bhagavā dhammaṁ deseti dassanasamāpattīsu.

There are these four attainments of vision.
Catasso imā, bhante, dassanasamāpattiyo.

Firstly, some ascetic or brahmin—by dint of keen, resolute, committed, and diligent effort and right focus—experiences an immersion of the heart of such a kind that they examine their own body up from the soles of the feet and down from the tips of the hairs, wrapped in skin and full of many kinds of filth.

Idha, bhante, ekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya padhānamanvāya anuyogamanvāya appamādamanvāya sammāmanasikāramanvāya tathārūpaṁ cetosamādhiṁ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte imameva kāyaṁ uddhaṁ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṁ pūraṁ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhati:

‘In this body there is head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine.’

‘atthi imasmiṁ kāye kesā lomā nakhā dantā taco maṁsaṁ nhāru aṭṭhi aṭṭhimiñjaṁ vakkaṁ hadayaṁ yakanaṁ kilomakaṁ pihakaṁ papphāsaṁ antaṁ antaguṇaṁ udariyaṁ karīsaṁ pittaṁ semhaṁ pubbo lohitaṁ sedo medo assu vasā kheḷo siṅghānikā lasikā muttan’ti.

This is the first attainment of vision.

Ayaṁ paṭhamā dassanasamāpatti.

Furthermore, some ascetic or brahmin attains that and goes beyond it.

Puna caparaṁ, bhante, idhekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya …pe… tathārūpaṁ cetosamādhiṁ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte imameva kāyaṁ uddhaṁ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṁ pūraṁ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhati:‘atthi imasmiṁ kāye kesā lomā …pe… lasikā muttan’ti.

They examine a person’s bones with skin, flesh, and blood.

Atikkamma ca purisassa chavimaṁsalohitaṁ aṭṭhiṁ paccavekkhati.

This is the second attainment of vision.

Ayaṁ dutiyā dassanasamāpatti.

Furthermore, some ascetic or brahmin attains that and goes beyond it.

Puna caparaṁ, bhante, idhekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya …pe… tathārūpaṁ cetosamādhiṁ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte imameva kāyaṁ uddhaṁ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṁ pūraṁ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhati: ‘atthi imasmiṁ kāye kesā lomā …pe… lasikā muttan’ti.
Atikkamma ca purisassa chavimaṁsalohitaṁ aṭṭhiṁ paccavekkhati.

They understand a person’s stream of consciousness, unbroken on both sides, established in both this world and the next [other].

Purisassa ca viññāṇasotaṁ pajānāti, ubhayato abbocchinnaṁ idha loke patiṭṭhitañca paraloke patiṭṭhitañca.

This is the third attainment of vision.

Ayaṁ tatiyā dassanasamāpatti.

Furthermore, some ascetic or brahmin attains that and goes beyond it.

Puna caparaṁ, bhante, idhekacco samaṇo vā brāhmaṇo vā ātappamanvāya …pe… tathārūpaṁ cetosamādhiṁ phusati, yathāsamāhite citte imameva kāyaṁ uddhaṁ pādatalā adho kesamatthakā tacapariyantaṁ pūraṁ nānappakārassa asucino paccavekkhati:‘atthi imasmiṁ kāye kesā lomā …pe… lasikā muttan’ti.Atikkamma ca purisassa chavimaṁsalohitaṁ aṭṭhiṁ paccavekkhati.

They understand a person’s stream of consciousness, unbroken on both sides, not established in either this world or the next [other].

Purisassa ca viññāṇasotaṁ pajānāti, ubhayato abbocchinnaṁ idha loke appatiṭṭhitañca paraloke appatiṭṭhitañca.

This is the fourth attainment of vision.

Ayaṁ catutthā dassanasamāpatti.

This is unsurpassable when it comes to attainments of vision.
Etadānuttariyaṁ, bhante, dassanasamāpattīsu.

https://suttacentral.net/dn28/en/sujato
The word "not established" ("appatiṭṭhitañca") refers to Nibbana; per SN 22.53.

Since it is only possible for there to be a consciousness abiding in Nibbana in the here-&-now, the above use of "viññāṇasotaṁ" (including with "this world & the other world") can only refer to a stream of consciousness in the here & now.

In summary, DN 28 appears to mean:

1. For the non-Arahant, the stream of consciousness fluctuates between "worlds". Please note, the word "world" is used for here & now mental states, such as in SN 12.44, or more clearly, in MN 79, which describes jhana as "a world of exclusive pleasant feelings".

2. For the Arahant, the stream of consciousness is uninterrupted in Nibbana (i.e., not this world & another world).

3. As for the word "sota" or "stream", it appears to have an ordinary meaning, such as in "sotapanna".

:smile:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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DooDoot wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:28 am Yes, it appears, so. The term "vinnanasota" appears only found in DN 28, spoken by Sariputta (who had no psychic powers).
Please do not spread false information about the Buddha's great disciples. Sariputta did have psychic powers, they just were not as impressive as other disciples such as maha moggallana
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... tml#turner

Furthermore, the context of your words implies Sariputta lacking psychic powers (which he didnt) means his statements are not accurate. But even if he did not have psychic powers his words are still one of the most authoritative in Buddhist doctrine as he is still the Buddha's chief disciple foremost in wisdom.
The Blessed One said, "Monks, Sariputta is wise, of great discernment, deep discernment, wide... joyous... rapid... quick... penetrating discernment. For half a month, Sariputta clearly saw insight[1] into mental qualities one after another.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... than.html
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“Have you taken leave of Sāriputta, bhikkhus?”

“No, venerable sir.”

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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DooDoot wrote: Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:00 pm ...
The unconditioned is not "a world". The unconditioned is "lokuttara", which means: "beyond/transcending the world".
...
I still interpret "the unconditioned" when I read in MN117 paraloka
... there is this world and the other world; ... there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ ...
It could be an example of using paraloka to refer to the unconditioned. What then if not the unconditioned can be "realised for themselves by direct knowledge" by "the virtuous"?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:11 pm I still interpret "the unconditioned" when I read in MN117 paraloka. What then if not the unconditioned can be "realised for themselves by direct knowledge" by "the virtuous"?
Its not the unconditioned. Its another world, of either 'heaven' or 'hell'.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:10 am
mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:11 pm I still interpret "the unconditioned" when I read in MN117 paraloka. What then if not the unconditioned can be "realised for themselves by direct knowledge" by "the virtuous"?
Its not the unconditioned. Its another world, of either 'heaven' or 'hell'.
Boo. Not convincing. It says the other world. The realization of the virtuous is not heaven or hell. They achieve direct knowledge of something and this something is not a conditioned world.
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