the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DooDoot
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Re: Are you a Dictionary-believer or Commentary-believer?

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:39 am i was told this was on-topic in situations like this.
u heard wrong. "I" making is important when the topic is about "I" making. But bringing what u previously heard without understanding into this topic, the PTS Dictionary says:
nivāsa
stopping, dwelling, resting-place, abode; living, sheltering Ja.i.115 (˚ṁ kappeti to put up), Ja.ii.110; Pv-a.76, Pv-a.78. Usually in phrase pubbe-nivāsaṁ anussarati “to remember one’s former abode or place of existence (in a former life),” characterising the faculty of remembering one’s former birth
As I suggested, the words highlighted in red above is evidence of my suggestion the PTS Dictionary is "sectarian interpretive".

For example the word “vāsa" is found below:
There are these ten noble abodes in which the noble ones of the past, present, and future abide.
“Dasayime, bhikkhave, ariyāvāsā, ye ariyā āvasiṁsu vā āvasanti vā āvasissanti vā.

What ten?
Katame dasa?

A mendicant has given up five factors, possesses six factors, has a single guard, has four supports, has eliminated idiosyncratic interpretations of the truth :shock: , has totally given up searching, has unsullied intentions, has stilled the physical process, and is well freed in mind and well freed by wisdom.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pañcaṅgavippahīno hoti, chaḷaṅgasamannāgato, ekārakkho, caturāpasseno, paṇunnapaccekasacco, samavayasaṭṭhesano, anāvilasaṅkappo, passaddhakāyasaṅkhāro, suvimuttacitto, suvimuttapañño.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.20/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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plabit
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Re: Are you a Dictionary-believer or Commentary-believer?

Post by plabit »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:29 am
PTS Pali English Dictionary
upapajjati
to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise Vin.iii.20 (nirayaṁ); AN.iii.415; AN.v.292 sq.; Snp.584; Iti.13 (nirayaṁ), Iti.14 (sugatiṁ; variant reading upp˚), Iti.67 (saggaṁ lokaṁ; variant reading upp˚); Iti.43 = Dhp.307 (nirayaṁ); Dhp.126, Dhp.140; Pv.i.10#7 (variant reading BB. udapajjatha = uppajja Pv-a.50); Pp.16, Pp.51, Pp.60; Ne.37, Ne.99, cp. Kv.611 sq. pp. upapannā (q.v.)
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise .
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṁ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

MN 148
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not reborn.

i.e. the eye isn't what is reborn? Seems like it works to me.
Last edited by plabit on Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are you a Dictionary-believer or Commentary-believer?

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:52 amFor example the word “vāsa" is found below:
There are these ten noble abodes in which the noble ones of the past, present, and future abide.
“Dasayime, bhikkhave, ariyāvāsā, ye ariyā āvasiṁsu vā āvasanti vā āvasissanti vā.

What ten?
Katame dasa?

A mendicant has given up five factors, possesses six factors, has a single guard, has four supports, has eliminated idiosyncratic interpretations of the truth :shock: , has totally given up searching, has unsullied intentions, has stilled the physical process, and is well freed in mind and well freed by wisdom.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu pañcaṅgavippahīno hoti, chaḷaṅgasamannāgato, ekārakkho, caturāpasseno, paṇunnapaccekasacco, samavayasaṭṭhesano, anāvilasaṅkappo, passaddhakāyasaṅkhāro, suvimuttacitto, suvimuttapañño.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.20/en/sujato
These extraordinarily-literal, over-literal, readings of Pali suttas are a problem for you, because they are actually simplifications of the Dharma. You say that past abodes can't mean other lives because multiple present abodes do not mean multiple present lives. You say words don't mean "rebirth" because they mean "appearing again." You appear to be literally intellectually incapable of understanding how these are non-points and do not support your argument that the Buddha did not teach the rebirth of sentient beings. This entire debacle of yours is similar to how you refuse to see how jati can refer to physical births as much as it can mean self-conceptions in your personal psychologized de-physicalized psuedo-Dhamma. Take, for instance, this:
DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:29 am
PTS Pali English Dictionary
upapajjati
to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise Vin.iii.20 (nirayaṁ); AN.iii.415; AN.v.292 sq.; Snp.584; Iti.13 (nirayaṁ), Iti.14 (sugatiṁ; variant reading upp˚), Iti.67 (saggaṁ lokaṁ; variant reading upp˚); Iti.43 = Dhp.307 (nirayaṁ); Dhp.126, Dhp.140; Pv.i.10#7 (variant reading BB. udapajjatha = uppajja Pv-a.50); Pp.16, Pp.51, Pp.60; Ne.37, Ne.99, cp. Kv.611 sq. pp. upapannā (q.v.)
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise .
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṁ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

MN 148
The PTS Pali English Dictionary above appears to be clutching at straws.
This is the single least-informed thing you have said with great confidence on this forum, but giving us uninformed and/or completely wrong claims with great confidence is ubiquitous for you. Do you know Dunning and his wicked friend Kruger? The way you mutilated that sutta with the red text and then pretended the dictionary was to blame was particularly reprehensible.
Last edited by retrofuturist on Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:29 am, edited 13 times in total.
Reason: Off-topic ad-hominem banter removed
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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mjaviem
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mjaviem »

I think one can believe there's a real world or to believe it's only a construction then read the Suttas without expecting a revelation whether there is an independent reality or not. And in the same way, one can think we go through multiple lives or that we have only this very one life and read the Suttas without expecting a revelation on the topic.

I don't believe the Suttas were explaining how things work beyond our own experience and the liberation from its suffering. I don't see anyone on these debates proving anything definitive, only see them debunking the other position... I find these debates interesting to learn and to build a worldview but it seems we can't find a definite answer. IMO
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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DooDoot
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Re: Are you a Dictionary-believer or Commentary-believer?

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:37 pm These extraordinarily-literal, over-literal, readings of Pali suttas are a problem for you, because they are actually simplifications of the Dharma. You say that past abodes can't mean other lives because multiple present abodes do not mean multiple present lives. You say words don't mean "rebirth" because they mean "appearing again." You appear to be literally intellectually incapable of understanding how these are non-points and do not support your argument that the Buddha did not teach the rebirth of sentient beings. This entire debacle of yours is similar to how you refuse to see how jati can refer to physical births as much as it can mean self-conceptions in your personal psychologized de-physicalized psuedo-Dhamma. Take, for instance, this:
DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:29 am
PTS Pali English Dictionary
upapajjati
to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise Vin.iii.20 (nirayaṁ); AN.iii.415; AN.v.292 sq.; Snp.584; Iti.13 (nirayaṁ), Iti.14 (sugatiṁ; variant reading upp˚), Iti.67 (saggaṁ lokaṁ; variant reading upp˚); Iti.43 = Dhp.307 (nirayaṁ); Dhp.126, Dhp.140; Pv.i.10#7 (variant reading BB. udapajjatha = uppajja Pv-a.50); Pp.16, Pp.51, Pp.60; Ne.37, Ne.99, cp. Kv.611 sq. pp. upapannā (q.v.)
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise .
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṁ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

MN 148

The PTS Pali English Dictionary above appears to be clutching at straws.
This is the single least-informed thing you have said with great confidence on this forum, but giving us uninformed and/or completely wrong claims with great confidence is ubiquitous for you. Do you know Dunning and his wicked friend Kruger? The way you mutilated that sutta with the red text and then pretended the dictionary was to blame was particularly reprehensible.
The above is not discussion but nonsense. A poster was called "uninformed" yet no sutta information was offered to substantiate this. This is not discussion.

:focus:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

If you're going to respond to me saying "not discussion but nonsense," please do a better job of formatting your posts going forward. That extraordinarily tiny font is an eyesore, significantly smaller than I see anyone else using on the forum. It is common practice in journals to use a tinier font for large quotations that take up a lot of space, but that is altogether too tiny.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:37 am If you're going to respond to me saying "not discussion but nonsense," please do a better job of formatting your posts going forward.
The verbose topics you start on this forum with verbose extravagant quotes and also your manner of general posting reminds me of starting topics about a Mozart Concerto but having no background in music theory.

Therefore, to reiterate. I made an informed post about MN 148, quoting sutta & Pali. Where as your reply presented no sutta or Pali information whatsoever. That is why it was & remains "nonsense". :ugeek:

Again, below, another sutta with the word "upapajjati" (pp. "upapanno") that does not mean "reborn":
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world.
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ.

What four? A person may have:
Katame cattāro?

Little learning ;) and not get the point of learning :shock:
Appassuto sutena anupapanno,

Little learning but get the point of learning.
appassuto sutena upapanno,

Much learning but not get the point of learning.
bahussuto sutena anupapanno,

Much learning and get the point of learning.
bahussuto sutena upapanno.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.6/en/sujato
It is also a great coincidence the above sutta is directly applicable to our current chat. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

Thank you, DooDoot. That is much better formatted. I still think it is disrespectful to the Buddha and the Dharma to put in those weird little emoticons you put in interspersed throughout the buddhavacana, but as I said before in the moderated content, you are free to put them there and disagree and carry on as if it were not disrespectful to what you quote when you quote like that. I understand you find my words too large and sometimes the meaning of my threads might slip past you during your excessive and proliferous posting on them. I'll try to use smaller ones with you specifically, but will not change my language while posting on the forum in general to meet your demands.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:00 am I still think it is disrespectful to the Buddha and the Dharma to put in those weird little emoticons you put in interspersed throughout the buddhavacana,..
But it is not disrespectful. To the contrary, it is disrespectful when I posted sutta and certain individuals do not read them. Therefore, the little emoticons are used to bring attention to teachings in the suttas to those individuals who do not respect the Buddha's words. For example, if i post a sutta to learn Pali from the Venerable Dhammanando, I would not post any little emoticons in the sutta because i trust Venerable Dhammanando, for example, will read the sutta. The bottom line is no amount of attempts at virtue-signaling will change the inherent chronic disrespect for the suttas some posters have. In short, i raised MN 148 and AN 4.6 into discussion and you did not make any tangible response to them; similar to the many of your posts that have been deleted by the moderators of late. It appears you are engaged in disruptive behaviour rather than engaged in sutta discussion. MN 148 and AN 4.6 clearly show "upapajjati" does not mean "reborn" in those contexts. Therefore, if you can offer something tangible to refute this point of view, you are welcome to do so. For example, a certain poster posted in reply:
plabit wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:13 am
DooDoot wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:29 am
PTS Pali English Dictionary
upapajjati
to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise Vin.iii.20 (nirayaṁ); AN.iii.415; AN.v.292 sq.; Snp.584; Iti.13 (nirayaṁ), Iti.14 (sugatiṁ; variant reading upp˚), Iti.67 (saggaṁ lokaṁ; variant reading upp˚); Iti.43 = Dhp.307 (nirayaṁ); Dhp.126, Dhp.140; Pv.i.10#7 (variant reading BB. udapajjatha = uppajja Pv-a.50); Pp.16, Pp.51, Pp.60; Ne.37, Ne.99, cp. Kv.611 sq. pp. upapannā (q.v.)
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not to get to, be reborn in (acc.) to originate, rise .
‘Cakkhu attā’ti yo vadeyya taṁ na upapajjati.

The arising and vanishing of the eye is evident,
Cakkhussa uppādopi vayopi paññāyati.

MN 148
If anyone says, ‘the eye is self,’ that is not reborn.

i.e. the eye isn't what is reborn? Seems like it works to me.
The above reply is a valid reply because it directly refers to the topic subject matter. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:00 am, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

I can have posts deleted when I complain too, Doot. This post of yours could easily be deleted by a moderator for being off-topic. I think it's better people see some things than not.

Go back and read again what I wrote. This is you pretending your interlocutor doesn't engage with you again. This is a perennial activity you engage in whenever you start talking to me. "Certain individuals do not read" your suttas. Nonsense, stupid nonsense. I'm sorry Doot, but saying I didn't read your irrelevant sutta quotes is a weird lie. You would have no way of knowing if I read those quotations of yours. There is a response to silliness you brought up vis-a-vis MN 148, but perhaps the words were too large again. It lowers me to address your perennial misreadings of the Buddha's suttas because it is like trying to correct the manners of someone who doesn't know what manners are.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Ok, lads... I'm not quite sure what the topic is at this point, but I doubt that meta-discussion and quarreling are it.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:59 am Greetings,

Ok, lads... I'm not quite sure what the topic is at this point, but I doubt that meta-discussion and quarreling are it.
My view is, as a moderator, you should address the types of responses below, which are unrelated to debate and are mere name calling:
There is a response to silliness you brought up vis-a-vis MN 148, but perhaps the words were too large again. It lowers me to address your perennial misreadings of the Buddha's suttas
The continuation of the above type of pointless banter in unrelated to the purpose of the forum. It should be forbidden for someone to continuously post: "your perennial misreadings of the Buddha's suttas" without any substantiation. The above appears to be the practice of false speech.

Imagine every time someone makes a sincere effort at discussing sutta, regardless of who they are, be it Auto, SDC or anyone, and posters merely reply without substantiation or proper refute: "your perennial misreadings of the Buddha's suttas". This is mere trolling & name calling.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DooDoot,
DooDoot wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:26 am My view is, as a moderator, you should address the types of responses below, which are unrelated to debate and are mere name calling:
There is a response to silliness you brought up vis-a-vis MN 148, but perhaps the words were too large again. It lowers me to address your perennial misreadings of the Buddha's suttas
The continuation of the above type of pointless banter in unrelated to the purpose of the forum. It should be forbidden for someone to continuously post: "your perennial misreadings of the Buddha's suttas" without any substantiation. The above appears to be the practice of false speech.
Understood. However, what a member deems as "false speech" is not a violation of the terms of Service.
ToS4 wrote:Speech and actions are moderated strictly and impartially according to the standards defined in the Terms of Service - not to the standard of Sutta, Vinaya, personal preference, nor any other code and/or standard of conduct.
DooDoot wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:26 am Imagine every time someone makes a sincere effort at discussing sutta, posters merely reply without substantiation or proper refute: "your perennial misreadings of the Buddha's suttas"
Understood, but then, you're not averse to telling people they have misread or misunderstood the Buddha's teachings either. If you wish to uplift the standard of forum discussion by uplifting your own speech, and making it abundantly obvious that you're operating from a more objective perspective, not focused on the individuals involved in the discussion, then by all means be my guest. Discussion of the Suttas would indeed be more interesting than discussion of people and whether or not they're discussing the suttas.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

Going forward, please do not pretend that I do not address the irrelevant points you bring up. It is not against the TOS to inform someone that their precious quotes are wrongly applied and that they don't understand what they are copying and pasting. It is not against the TOS to inform someone that they have mutilated a sutta by putting weird red text into it that doesn't belong. It is very disingenuous to have put that red gibberish there yourself and then to pretend that the dictionary is to blame because it is somehow "clutching at straws" because DooDoot mutilates suttas with red text.

After you assert that I have not addressed the suttas you've brought up, please do not attempt to have me saying "No, I did address them" removed by moderation so that it indeed looks like I did not address them. I said "You say that past abodes can't mean other lives because multiple present abodes do not mean multiple present lives." That is directly quoting, indeed tangibly quoting if we will, your misuse and mutilation of a sutta other than MN 148, which you mutilated with an incompetently translated section of ungrammatical red text instead of weird emoticons. The quotation of yours of MN 148 is a mutilation you created based on misreading a dictionary and I do not have to take it seriously.

To illustrate how foolish your mutilation of MN 148 based on the dictionary entry was, I will use Merriam-Webster's definition of foolish, namely "having or showing a lack of good sense, judgment, or discretion."
DooDoot when he quotes the dictionary like that makes a foolish mistake.

DooDoot when he quotes the dictionary like that makes a having or showing a lack of good sense, judgment, or discretion :hello: mistake.
Well, that's an ungrammatical mess. Looks like Merriam-Webster is clutching at straws!

The sense that you were looking for in the dictionary is sense 1, "to get to." In the New Concise Pali English Dictionary, this sense is refined into "is fit for, is suitable." This kind of semantic stretching is completely normal in natural languages. Saying "that does not arrive" or "that does not get to (it)" is a way of saying "that is not tenable" or "that is not suitable" or "that is not appropriate" in this Prakrit when we put it into English. The PTS dictionary is very old. You can't just cut and paste sections from the definitions into the suttas and expect them to be grammatical. Particularly, don't take a list of infinitives and place them into an English sentence as if they are conjugated, especially if you are perfectly capable of realizing that the Pali does not have infinitives in it to correspond to English infinitives. That is sure to create a mess like the mess of red text in MN 148. Similarly, do not conflate multiple different meanings from the dictionary as if they were all the same meaning. That is also going to make a mess like the mess you made in MN 148.

Was infinitive too large a word? An infinitive is like a "stem form" of a word in Pali. It is unconjugated. Do you know what unconjugated means, or is that also too large? If you didn't get anything I said, I will do exactly only one clarification post for vocabulary. I'll do this one post as a charity for you, since you complain that the words I use are too large.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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DooDoot
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by DooDoot »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:36 am Understood, but then, you're not averse to telling people they have misread or misunderstood the Buddha's teachings either.
Not at all. I substantiate what i say. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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