the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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AlexBrains92
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by AlexBrains92 »

SteRo wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:32 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:32 pm You'd need to add in concepts like bhavanga from the Abhidhamma in order to flesh out the mechanics of rebirth. The suttas don't really resolve the paradox of anatta and rebirth.
No bhavanga for me, thanks :D
B. Bodhi in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma wrote: Life-continuum (bhavanga): The word bhavanga means “factor (anga) of
existence (bhava),” that is, “the indispensable condition of existence.” Bhavanga is the
function of consciousness by which the continuity of the individual is preserved through
the duration of any single existence, from conception to death. After the paṭisandhicitta
[rebirth-linking consciousness] has arisen and fallen away, it is then followed by the bhavangacitta, which is a resultant
consciousness of the same type as the paṭisandhicitta but which performs a different
function, namely, the function of preserving the continuity of individual existence.
Bhavangacittas arise and pass away every moment during life whenever there is no
active cognitive process taking place. This type of consciousness is most evident during
deep dreamless sleep, but it also occurs momentarily during waking life countless times
between occasions of active cognition.
When an object impinges on a sense door, the bhavanga is arrested, and an active
cognitive process ensues for the purpose of cognizing the object. Immediately after the
cognitive process is completed, again the bhavanga supervenes and continues until the
next cognitive process arises. Arising and perishing at every moment during this passive
phase of consciousness, the bhavanga flows on like a stream (sota), without remaining
static for two consecutive moments.
.
It's a nice explanatory concept however. "Stream of consciousness" is a common figure also in non-theravadin buddhisms. While the conceptual frame of "stream" or "continuum" appears to be permanent, the consciousnesses are subject to rise and fall and thus impermanent.
It may also be interpreted as "sub-consciousness" or "basic awareness" giving it a more static connotation which more fluently leads over to "soul".
Yes, there is Alayavijnana in early Yogacara, replaced by Cittasantana in later Yogacara. Therefore we find one of these concepts in every Mahayana school with Yogacara influences (probably every Mahayana school, theoretically but Gelug... theoretically!). There is no similiar concept in Madhyamaka.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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confusedlayman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by confusedlayman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:32 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:32 pm You'd need to add in concepts like bhavanga from the Abhidhamma in order to flesh out the mechanics of rebirth. The suttas don't really resolve the paradox of anatta and rebirth.
No bhavanga for me, thanks :D
B. Bodhi in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma wrote: Life-continuum (bhavanga): The word bhavanga means “factor (anga) of
existence (bhava),” that is, “the indispensable condition of existence.” Bhavanga is the
function of consciousness by which the continuity of the individual is preserved through
the duration of any single existence, from conception to death. After the paṭisandhicitta
[rebirth-linking consciousness] has arisen and fallen away, it is then followed by the bhavangacitta, which is a resultant
consciousness of the same type as the paṭisandhicitta but which performs a different
function, namely, the function of preserving the continuity of individual existence.
Bhavangacittas arise and pass away every moment during life whenever there is no
active cognitive process taking place. This type of consciousness is most evident during
deep dreamless sleep, but it also occurs momentarily during waking life countless times
between occasions of active cognition.
When an object impinges on a sense door, the bhavanga is arrested, and an active
cognitive process ensues for the purpose of cognizing the object. Immediately after the
cognitive process is completed, again the bhavanga supervenes and continues until the
next cognitive process arises. Arising and perishing at every moment during this passive
phase of consciousness, the bhavanga flows on like a stream (sota), without remaining
static for two consecutive moments.
.
It's a nice explanatory concept however. "Stream of consciousness" is a common figure also in non-theravadin buddhisms. While the conceptual frame of "stream" or "continuum" appears to be permanent, the consciousnesses are subject to rise and fall and thus impermanent.
It may also be interpreted as "sub-consciousness" or "basic awareness" giving it a more static connotation which more fluently leads over to "soul".
that basic awareness is also impermanent
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:56 pmYes, there is Alayavijnana in early Yogacara, replaced by Cittasantana in later Yogacara. Therefore we find one of these concepts in every Mahayana school with Yogacara influences (probably every Mahayana school, theoretically but Gelug... theoretically!). There is no similiar concept in Madhyamaka.
Oh, the Gelug definitely believe in the alayavijnana.
In saying that one grasps at the self of a person, one feels that as a person in and of oneself, existing in one’s own right, and because of this grasping one cherishes oneself too much. Due to this grasping or self-cherishing attitude, many other inappropriate states of mind or conceptions take place in one’s mind. Due to this one experiences delusions such as attachment or anger and under their influence one creates karmic actions. These karmic actions keep one within cyclic existence. As one creates karmic actions, they deposit imprints or latencies in one’s mindstream or mental continuum.
(http://teachingsfromtibet.com/2017/04/1 ... tradition/)

You'll notice they are using the definition here of alayavijnana as the field as well as the seeds, but call it the cittasamtati because the terms are interchangeable for them. What I am more interested in is a) how did you decide that cittasamtati was an evolution of alayavijnana and b) how did you decide that Madhyamaka has "no similar concept?"
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
SteRo
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by SteRo »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:56 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:32 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:51 pm
No bhavanga for me, thanks :D
B. Bodhi in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma wrote: Life-continuum (bhavanga): The word bhavanga means “factor (anga) of
existence (bhava),” that is, “the indispensable condition of existence.” Bhavanga is the
function of consciousness by which the continuity of the individual is preserved through
the duration of any single existence, from conception to death. After the paṭisandhicitta
[rebirth-linking consciousness] has arisen and fallen away, it is then followed by the bhavangacitta, which is a resultant
consciousness of the same type as the paṭisandhicitta but which performs a different
function, namely, the function of preserving the continuity of individual existence.
Bhavangacittas arise and pass away every moment during life whenever there is no
active cognitive process taking place. This type of consciousness is most evident during
deep dreamless sleep, but it also occurs momentarily during waking life countless times
between occasions of active cognition.
When an object impinges on a sense door, the bhavanga is arrested, and an active
cognitive process ensues for the purpose of cognizing the object. Immediately after the
cognitive process is completed, again the bhavanga supervenes and continues until the
next cognitive process arises. Arising and perishing at every moment during this passive
phase of consciousness, the bhavanga flows on like a stream (sota), without remaining
static for two consecutive moments.
.
It's a nice explanatory concept however. "Stream of consciousness" is a common figure also in non-theravadin buddhisms. While the conceptual frame of "stream" or "continuum" appears to be permanent, the consciousnesses are subject to rise and fall and thus impermanent.
It may also be interpreted as "sub-consciousness" or "basic awareness" giving it a more static connotation which more fluently leads over to "soul".
Yes, there is Alayavijnana in early Yogacara, replaced by Cittasantana in later Yogacara. Therefore we find one of these concepts in every Mahayana school with Yogacara influences (probably every Mahayana school, theoretically but Gelug... theoretically!). There is no similiar concept in Madhyamaka.
The Gelugs who are madhyamikas also talk of "stream of consciousness" in sutra context ... and their concept of "clear light" used in their vajrayana is an esoteric version of it.
But yes since madhyamaka proper is just non-implicative negation there is no room for such kinds of speculations.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:03 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:56 pmYes, there is Alayavijnana in early Yogacara, replaced by Cittasantana in later Yogacara. Therefore we find one of these concepts in every Mahayana school with Yogacara influences (probably every Mahayana school, theoretically but Gelug... theoretically!). There is no similiar concept in Madhyamaka.
Oh, the Gelug definitely believe in the alayavijnana.
In saying that one grasps at the self of a person, one feels that as a person in and of oneself, existing in one’s own right, and because of this grasping one cherishes oneself too much. Due to this grasping or self-cherishing attitude, many other inappropriate states of mind or conceptions take place in one’s mind. Due to this one experiences delusions such as attachment or anger and under their influence one creates karmic actions. These karmic actions keep one within cyclic existence. As one creates karmic actions, they deposit imprints or latencies in one’s mindstream or mental continuum.
(http://teachingsfromtibet.com/2017/04/1 ... tradition/)

You'll notice they are using the definition here of alayavijnana as the field as well as the seeds, but call it the cittasamtati because the terms are interchangeable for them. What I am more interested in is a) how did you decide that cittasamtati was an evolution of alayavijnana and b) how did you decide that Madhyamaka has "no similar concept?"
With regards to a), did you read it on this Wikipedia page? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindstream
The notion of citta-santāna developed in later Yogacara-thought, where citta-santāna replaced the notion of ālayavijñāna,[14] the store-house consciousness in which the karmic seeds were stored. It is not a "permanent, unchanging, transmigrating entity", like the atman, but a series of momentary consciousnesses.[15]
The footnote is from Caroline Rhys Davids. I don't think that this piece of scholarship from her from 1903 stands the test of time.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:03 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:56 pmYes, there is Alayavijnana in early Yogacara, replaced by Cittasantana in later Yogacara. Therefore we find one of these concepts in every Mahayana school with Yogacara influences (probably every Mahayana school, theoretically but Gelug... theoretically!). There is no similiar concept in Madhyamaka.
Oh, the Gelug definitely believe in the alayavijnana.
In saying that one grasps at the self of a person, one feels that as a person in and of oneself, existing in one’s own right, and because of this grasping one cherishes oneself too much. Due to this grasping or self-cherishing attitude, many other inappropriate states of mind or conceptions take place in one’s mind. Due to this one experiences delusions such as attachment or anger and under their influence one creates karmic actions. These karmic actions keep one within cyclic existence. As one creates karmic actions, they deposit imprints or latencies in one’s mindstream or mental continuum.
(http://teachingsfromtibet.com/2017/04/1 ... tradition/)

You'll notice they are using the definition here of alayavijnana as the field as well as the seeds, but call it the cittasamtati because the terms are interchangeable for them. What I am more interested in is a) how did you decide that cittasamtati was an evolution of alayavijnana and b) how did you decide that Madhyamaka has "no similar concept?"
a) I've read it here: https://www.academia.edu/16675700/Buddh ... us_Author_
b) Has it? :shrug:

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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AlexBrains92
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by AlexBrains92 »

SteRo wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:14 pm But yes since madhyamaka proper is just non-implicative negation there is no room for such kinds of speculations.
:thumbsup:

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Coëmgenu
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Coëmgenu »

So the eclipsing of the Yogācāra Abhidharma wing and its alaya by the "logico-epistemological" tradition of Yogācāra and its mindstream is the new version of Rhys David's older thesis. I would disagree with Rhys David's but Lusthaus is harder to disagree with. It seems like there are two uses of "cittasamtati," one being Yogācārin-specific and the other nearly pan-Buddhist.

See this from the "Questions of Maitreya" division of the Mahāprajñāpāramitāsūtra:
“Furthermore, Maitreya, if bodhisattvas possess nine qualities, they will abandon all evil rebirths and not fall into the clutches of sinful associates, but swiftly realize supreme, perfect enlightenment and become a buddha. What nine qualities? “Maitreya, those bodhisattvas distance themselves from desires and from sinful, non-virtuous things. They investigate, examine, and possess the joy and happiness that arise from solitude. Thus, they accomplish the first meditative absorption and maintain it. "They are free from thinking or examining, and possess inner serenity. Because their mindstreams are one-pointed, they do not think or examine. Endowed with the joy and happiness that arise from meditative concentration, they then accomplish the second meditative absorption and maintain it. “Because they are free from attachment to joy, they maintain equipoise and possess mindfulness and awareness. They experience the physical happiness of which the noble ones say, ‘To possess mindfulness and remain in happiness is equanimity.’ Free of joy they then accomplish the third meditative absorption and maintain it. “They renounce happiness after already renouncing suffering. Because both mental happiness and mental displeasure decline, there is neither happiness nor suffering. They then accomplish the fourth meditative absorption and maintain it, with immaculate equipoise and mindfulness. “They transcend conceptions of form in all aspects, and their conceptions of materiality decline. [continuing on to the formless absorptions...]"
So it's not possible for a logico-epistemological tradition to have invented this term, as this sūtra predates the entire Yogācāra "logico-epistemological" project. Instead, the logico-epistemological wing of Yogācāra adapts a preexisting Buddhist term for their own purposes.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Mr. Seek
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mr. Seek »

A relative died before one or two years. Found out recently that, just before he died, he spoke of seeing a cow. :/

He wasn't the brightest lad from what I was told, so things add up. Just sharing, maybe this will motivate someone...
denise
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by denise »

my mom saw foxes playing in the yard and "needed to tell the king". "must tell the king".... :candle:
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DooDoot
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:31 am Kāme is the vocative plural of "kāma". Kāme, like kāmā, refers to the 5 senses. So it is a return to the world of the 5 senses (plus mind), not to "sensuality". This supports the idea of rebirth.
Lol - u are funny dude; trying to anthropomorphisize the sensuality. While i ain't an authority on Pali, i would guess "kāme" is accusative plural.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:31 amNaturally a mind which seeks pleasurable sense objects
I doubt a once-returner or occasional returner generally actively "seeks" sensual objects. I imagine a once-returner is a Noble One rather than a sensual troll.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:31 am will give rise to the āyatanāni at death in a new existence, since attention is the condition for the bifurcation of experience into the abodes (āyatanāni) of vision and forms etc (as per MN 128).
Very imaginative stuff there. Ceisiwrism. :bow:
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BrokenBones
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by BrokenBones »

So a stream enterer has seven episodes of sensuality? Is that all in one go or can they spread it out over a few years?
Btw the Buddha generally describes these states of enlightenment with the words IF no further progress is made. The words hijack and ad nauseam come to mind.
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by DooDoot »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:30 am So a stream enterer has seven episodes of sensuality?
At least SN 13.1 does not refer to seven more lives. The word "lives" is absent from the Pali.
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:30 amBtw the Buddha generally describes these states of enlightenment with the words IF no further progress is made.
Where is the evidence for the above? :shrug:
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:30 amThe words hijack and ad nauseam come to mind.
Like when you capitalised the "Right View (with asavas)" and non-capitalised the supramundane "right view". :thinking:

It seems the mundane right view cannot lead to the Supramundane Right View because asava & upadhi (attachments) are not Supramundane. The suttas plainly say the mundane right view only leads to merit (MN 117) and to the three types of skilful actions (MN 60). Where do the suttas say the Supramundane Right View will be born from the mundane right view? Thanks :thanks:

Iti 96 says quite plainly what a once-returner & non-returner are. One returns to sensuality and the other does not. The stream-enterer is irrelevant because sensuality is not a fetter in relation to the definition stream-entry. Your questions appear broken. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:38 pm, edited 5 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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BrokenBones
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by BrokenBones »

Aloka wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:58 am .

Ajahn Sona talks about the different stages of enlightenment (approx 26 minutes)




Any thoughts about the talk ?

:anjali:
What are your thoughts?
BrokenBones
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Re: Stages of Enlightenment

Post by BrokenBones »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:27 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:30 am So a stream enterer has seven episodes of sensuality?
At least SN 13.1 does not refer to seven more lives. The word "lives" is absent from the Pali.
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:30 amBtw the Buddha generally describes these states of enlightenment with the words IF no further progress is made.
Where is the evidence for the above? :shrug:
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:30 amThe words hijack and ad nauseam come to mind.
Like when you capitalised the "Right View (with asavas)" and non-capitalised the supramundane "right view". :thinking:

Iti 96 says quite plainly what a once-returner & non-returner are. One returns to sensuality and the other does not. The stream-enterer is irrelevant because sensuality is not a fetter in relation to the definition stream-entry. :smile:
So it DOES mean seven more episodes of sensuality?
Capitalisation... really? I assume you mean from another thread... how ridiculous.

What does a stream enterer enter seven times?
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