Abhidhamma historical origins

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ven. Saṃghabhadra makes a similar argument, in that illusions and mirages are always based on real existents.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:53 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:57 pm Wasn't related to OP, but seeing some posts here discussing topic related to early schools and Mahayana, I would like to share a Bhikkhu Bodhi's Dhamma sharing video:



In this video, he talks about the interaction between Nagarjuna and Sarvastivada, and also discuss some Mahayana scriptures such as Heart Sutra.
Can you tell us which bit in the video he discusses these things?
It started during the second half of the video. When he answering questions from the Tibetan monks.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22398
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:53 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:57 pm Wasn't related to OP, but seeing some posts here discussing topic related to early schools and Mahayana, I would like to share a Bhikkhu Bodhi's Dhamma sharing video:



In this video, he talks about the interaction between Nagarjuna and Sarvastivada, and also discuss some Mahayana scriptures such as Heart Sutra.
Can you tell us which bit in the video he discusses these things?
It started during the second half of the video. When he answering questions from the Tibetan monks.
44 minutes onwards.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:30 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:53 pm

Can you tell us which bit in the video he discusses these things?
It started during the second half of the video. When he answering questions from the Tibetan monks.
44 minutes onwards.
But I must say the topic did not went deep. I just posted here if in case anyone want to see what Bhikkhu Bodhi says about it.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by DooDoot »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:23 pm The quote of Visuddhi Magga above clearly stated "the generating of aggregates is birth", which doesn't contradict Suttanta such as Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, Saccavibhanga Sutta
It contradicts, as literally posted.
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:23 pmSo it is, the birth & death of "beings" is combination and breakup of five aggregates, arising and ceasing, exhibits the characteristics such as Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.
No. Death of beings leads to dukkha. Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta lead to liberation. Death is not anicca.

SN 22.85 says Arahant aggregates are anicca. SN 22.85 says Arahant does not die. Impermanence is not death. Death is not impermanence. Death is the state of the fool.
21. Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless. Heedlessness is the path to death. The heedful die not. The heedless are as if dead already.

Dhammapada
For it is death in the training of the Noble One to resign the training and return to a lesser life.

Maraṇañhetaṁ, sunakkhatta, ariyassa vinaye yo sikkhaṁ paccakkhāya hīnāyāvattati;

MN 105
:alien:
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:32 pm see what Bhikkhu Bodhi says about it.
Sujato & Brahmali said on SC Bhikkhu Bodhi translated "kamabhava" in SN 12.2 incorrectly. Sujato & Brahmali were correct about Bhikkhu Bodhi being wrong & mistaken.
VBB wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is existence? There are these three kinds of existence: sense-sphere :roll: existence, form-sphere existence, formless-sphere existence. This is called existence.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi
Bhikkhu Bodhi, similar to Abhidhamma, appears to believe "bhava" is a "life" rather than an "asava". :roll:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:32 am, edited 6 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by samseva »

Nobodyisspecial wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:31 pm It has come to my attention Bhikkhu Bodhi's view of the supposed Abhidhamma origin that he calls legend of the Buddha, when he was teaching Abhidhamma in heaven and then it being condensed and taught to his disciples.
This isn't Bhikkhu Bodhi's view. Bhikkhu Bodhi, being a scholar, goes over this aspect of the origin story of the Abhidhamma (of being teachings given to devas by the Buddha, and passed down to Sāriputta), for the purpose of mentioning it to the reader.

In every instance I've read of him describing this, from what I recall, he even mentions that he is not of the opinion, and then continues with what he thinks is the more probable origin of the Abhidhamma—that these works were likely detailed frameworks formulated by monks before and shortly after the Buddha's passing away, based on the Suttas and other teachings of the Buddha.
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Gwi »

DhsA 29:
"Ābhidhammika-bhikkhūyeva kira Dhammakathikā nāma,
avasesā Dhammakathaṃ kathentāpi na Dhammakathikā."

"Only those bhikkhus who understand
The Abhidhammå are the true preachers
of the Dhammå; the rest (other bhikkhus)
even though they talk about the Dhammå,
cannot be called a preacher of Dhammå."
:bow:


Like a Vedic brahmana can be called a brahmana.
This is true, but The Buddhå spoke of the Arahant
as a brahmana (supreme).

Teaching the Suttås may be called
the preacher of the Dhammå, this is true,
But the true preacher of Dhammå,
is the bhikkhu who understands Abhidhammå!!
:clap: :anjali:


* pict of Abhidhammatthasanggahå Vol. 1
(Indonesian translation). Translate by:
Ashin Khemindattherå 🇮🇩
Attachments
tmp-cam-1758836627.jpg
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:55 am "Only those bhikkhus who understand
The Abhidhammå are the true preachers
of the Dhammå; the rest (other bhikkhus)
even though they talk about the Dhammå,
cannot be called a preacher of Dhammå."
So the Buddha was not a true teacher. :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:02 am
Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:55 am "Only those bhikkhus who understand
The Abhidhammå are the true preachers
of the Dhammå; the rest (other bhikkhus)
even though they talk about the Dhammå,
cannot be called a preacher of Dhammå."
So the Buddha was not a true teacher. :roll:
Who was the first to teach Abhidhammå?
Answer: Tathāgatå

Who understands 1.000% the most about Abhidhammå?
Answer: Tathāgatå


Who doubts Abhidhammå?
Answer: those who don't understand
the Abhidhammå or haven't read it (only heard)


Just read Abhidhammatthasanggahå
(Just volume 1, u will understand what is
Abhidhammå).


Dhammå is ehipassikå!
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:30 am Who was the first to teach Abhidhammå?
Answer: Tathāgatå
The above sounds like false speech.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by DooDoot »

Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:30 am
Who doubts Abhidhammå?
Answer: those who don't understand
the Abhidhammå or haven't read it (only heard)
Please write factual posts. I have read Abhidhamma. It openly contradicts sutta. Please do not continually post unfactual unproven speech to me. I am a Buddhist. I detest dishonesty. Thank you :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
un8-
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:37 am Please do not continually post unfactual unproven speech to me. I am a Buddhist. I detest dishonesty. Thank you :thanks:
Didn't you accuse me of being another user a few days ago? Lead by example, not by words.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:32 am
Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:30 am Who was the first to teach Abhidhammå?
Answer: Tathāgatå
The above sounds like false speech.
Just read: The Great Chronicle of Buddhas
About "Yamaka-pāṭihāriyå".


… Minggu keempat setelah Pencerahan,
Buddhå Gotamå merenungkan Abhidhammå
di dalam Rumah Permata (ratanāgharå).
Dimulai dari: (1) Dhammasaṅgaṇī,
(2) Vibhaṅgå, (3) Dhāthu Kathā, (4) Puggala Paňňatti,
(5) Kathāvatthu, (6) Yamakå; ketika Sang Buddhå
memusatkan pikiran-Nya pada kitab (7) Paṭṭhānå,
cahaya sebesar gunung bersinar dari
bagian depan tubuh-Nya, memancar
hingga ke segala arah nan luas di alam semesta.

Dari telapak kaki-Nya memancar cahaya
berwarna koral setelah menembus
daratan, air, dan udara; dan bola cahaya biru
memancar satu demi satu dari kepala-Nya,
mencapai di angkasa tertinggi.
Pada waktu itu tidak terhitung banyaknya
makhluk di alam semesta yang (terlampau)
banyaknya memancarkan cahaya keemasan
seolah mereka mampu bersinar cemerlang
karena cahaya dari Buddhå Gotamå
menyinari tubuh mereka.

(Cahayanya masih ada hingga hari ini dalam
bentuk rantai zat-zat yang bersuhu [utuja-rūpå]).


THATSSSS SO AMAZINGGGGGG
Tathāgatå is the best!!!
:bow: :bow:
Attachments
tmp-cam-906578863.jpg
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Ontheway »

The doubters will always doubt. It is a waste of time for debating.

Theravada (or Vibhajjavada) accept Pali Tipitaka, that includes Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada

Those who rejected Abhidhamma Pitaka are simply not Theravadin. They are belong to one of the 18 schismatic schools called Sautrāntika.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sautr%C4%81ntika

Knowing this, there is no point for Theravadin to debate with the Sautrāntika sect.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Gwi »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:36 pm The doubters will always doubt. It is a waste of time for debating.

Theravada (or Vibhajjavada) accept Pali Tipitaka, that includes Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theravada

Those who rejected Abhidhamma Pitaka are simply not Theravadin. They are belong to one of the 18 schismatic schools called Sautrāntika.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sautr%C4%81ntika

Knowing this, there is no point for Theravadin to debate with the Sautrāntika sect.
I thought he is from Early Buddhism (maybe).
I dunt know how "early" they r.

Theravādin just follow the original one,
Early, newly, trendy, say:
"No (for Theravādin just Theravādin)."
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Post Reply