Abhidhamma historical origins

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Dweller
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Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Dweller »

There were early examples of those rejecting it still being accepted as Theravadins.

And in modern times, what authority is considering them as being non-Theravadin?
auto
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Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:23 pm The designation "Being" is mere conventional term, while ultimate sense is the "Five Aggregates". For a being's constituents, are non other than the Five Aggregates, which manifested the characteristics such as Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
You are equating satta with the five aggregates and next you say aggregates are an-atta. While what Sutta say is that the satta can be spoken of when there is delight, relishing(nandi). Take the mn 1 sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote: Because he has understood that relishing is the root of suffering,
‘Nandī dukkhassa mūlan’ti—
and that rebirth comes from continued existence; whoever has come to be gets old and dies.
iti viditvā ‘bhavā jāti bhūtassa jarāmaraṇan’ti.
Remove craving and there is no rebirth. Satta is not mentioned, instead there is awakening.
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote:That’s why the Realized One—with the ending, fading away, cessation, giving up, and letting go of all cravings—has awakened to the supreme perfect Awakening, I say.”
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘tathāgato sabbaso taṇhānaṁ khayā virāgā nirodhā cāgā paṭinissaggā anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambuddho’ti vadāmī”ti.
Take some other Sutta what tell chanda(craving) is awakening factor. Craving is for satta to arise. Awakening is the X in equation what needs be found where the satta is the constant. Satta = X.
auto
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Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by auto »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:06 am .
generating aggregates could mean,
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote:They perceive earth as earth.
pathaviṁ pathavito sañjānāti;
But then they identify with earth, they identify regarding earth, they identify as earth, they identify that ‘earth is mine’, they take pleasure in earth.
pathaviṁ pathavito saññatvā pathaviṁ maññati, pathaviyā maññati, pathavito maññati, pathaviṁ meti maññati, pathaviṁ abhinandati.
identity(sakkaya) are the five clinging aggregates. And maññati is this process of becoming which(continued existence) will be where rebirth is coming about,
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote:and that rebirth comes from continued existence; whoever has come to be gets old and dies.
iti viditvā ‘bhavā jāti bhūtassa jarāmaraṇan’ti.
i don't think there are distortions or contradictions.
Ontheway
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Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by Ontheway »

auto wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:42 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:23 pm The designation "Being" is mere conventional term, while ultimate sense is the "Five Aggregates". For a being's constituents, are non other than the Five Aggregates, which manifested the characteristics such as Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta.
You are equating satta with the five aggregates and next you say aggregates are an-atta. While what Sutta say is that the satta can be spoken of when there is delight, relishing(nandi). Take the mn 1 sutta,
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote: Because he has understood that relishing is the root of suffering,
‘Nandī dukkhassa mūlan’ti—
and that rebirth comes from continued existence; whoever has come to be gets old and dies.
iti viditvā ‘bhavā jāti bhūtassa jarāmaraṇan’ti.
Remove craving and there is no rebirth. Satta is not mentioned, instead there is awakening.
https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/sujato wrote:That’s why the Realized One—with the ending, fading away, cessation, giving up, and letting go of all cravings—has awakened to the supreme perfect Awakening, I say.”
Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘tathāgato sabbaso taṇhānaṁ khayā virāgā nirodhā cāgā paṭinissaggā anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ abhisambuddho’ti vadāmī”ti.
Take some other Sutta what tell chanda(craving) is awakening factor. Craving is for satta to arise. Awakening is the X in equation what needs be found where the satta is the constant. Satta = X.
It is clearly that Buddha didn't taught that a so-called Being contains soul or self in whatsoever sense. Sorry, I couldn't buy your idea of soul or atta as stated in many of your previous posts.

The so-called being eg: Human, animals, Devas, etc. just a combination of 5 aggregates affected by clinging, which is brought forth by means of Dependent Origination. Here there is neither Soul theory nor Annihilism ideology needed. Craving (Tanha) is not the being or self, it is just a conditioned factor that in turn conditions clinging (Upadana), which is turn conditioning becoming (Bhava), and again it conditions birth (Jati) again and again, lives after lives, wandering in Samsara non-stop. And this so-called being (aka all of us) are experiencing impermanence and sufferings in our daily lives. Since these aggregates are impermanent and bound for sufferings, we can't possibly think that: "Etam mama, eso hamasmi, eso me attati".

And this is why Buddha said a proper mindset should be developed towards these aggregates, that: "Netam mama, neso hamasmi, na me so attati."

And it seems you are making another term by changing "Anatta" into "An-atta"... that's just so off.

I am talking about Anatta or "not-self". Not sure if you are really read Anatta-related topics before.
Really not a fan of both "there is a self" and "there is no self", perhaps this gives better introduction.

Anatta and the concept of soul


Quote "Remove craving and there is no rebirth" :
Well, easier said than done. But it is true, if a person can remove three cravings: Craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming; then he/she will get to Enlightenment.

Quote "Take some other Sutta what tell chanda(craving) is awakening factor. " :
This Chanda is very different from tanha or other forms of chanda craving. This is Dhammacchanda, the desire or striving for Enlightenment. You need to see clearly that there is a distinction here.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm It is clearly that Buddha didn't taught that a so-called Being contains soul or self in whatsoever sense. Sorry, I couldn't buy your idea of soul or atta as stated in many of your previous posts.
Not sure why you make a step to remove from satta the essence what makes it to be a satta. Wouldn't it be a different term than satta then?
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm The so-called being eg: Human, animals, Devas, etc. just a combination of 5 aggregates affected by clinging, which is brought forth by means of Dependent Origination. Here there is neither Soul theory nor Annihilism ideology needed.
namarupa is the person according to the abhidhamma. I think i have read from visuddhimagga that the namarupa resides in sense bases. It complies with the Sutta's derived-form: cattle, foxes, children. These are the namarupa/inclinations, embryos conceived, not just rupa. And we can also know that it is the mind what explores, samsarati's.
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm Craving (Tanha) is not the being or self,
why would it? if you think i said something like that then you simply misread
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm And this so-called being (aka all of us) are experiencing impermanence and sufferings in our daily lives.
You are continuing not making difference between satta, sakkaya and sakkaya ditthi. Sakkaya ditthi is the view about taking khandas as your self.
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm And it seems you are making another term by changing "Anatta" into "An-atta"... that's just so off.
I didn't, i just made the - to highlight it: no-self
Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm I am talking about Anatta or "not-self". Not sure if you are really read Anatta-related topics before.
I am familiar with the there is no self to begin with and the claim that it is not annihilationism. Perhaps we can use it as common ground for now when you speak of no self?
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Abhidhamma historical origins

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:32 pm Quote "Take some other Sutta what tell chanda(craving) is awakening factor. " :
This Chanda is very different from tanha or other forms of chanda craving. This is Dhammacchanda, the desire or striving for Enlightenment. You need to see clearly that there is a distinction here.
I can see the distinction is there:
chanda is your own fabricated effort instead of relying on khandhas for tanha to arise.
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