Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

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may.all.bliss
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Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by may.all.bliss »

Came across this recently:
It has been asserted by current secular Buddhism, that Buddhism knows only of the gods (Brahma) and nothing of the Godhead/Absolute/Agathon Brahman. In actuality there can be doubt that in the grammatically ambiguous _expression Brahmabhu’to (attano) which describes the condition of those who are wholly liberated, that it is Brahman (the Absolute) and not Brahma (deva, or mere god) that is in the text and must be read; for it is by Brahman that one who is “wholly awake” has ”become.”

As "Brahma-vihara" means to dwell in Brahman, "Brahma-patha" are the four paths towards achieving it.[19]

The highest appellation in Buddhist Nikayan sutra is “Brahambhutena attano” [MN 1.341] “The Soul is having become Brahman”; absolutely equivalent to ‘Tat tvam asi’ (That/Brahman, thou art). For the Buddha himself is = Brahmabhu’to (Become That, Brahman). For (1) the comparatively limited knowledge of a Brahma is repeatedly emphasized, and (2) Brahmas are accordingly the Buddhas pupils, not he theirs [ S 1.141-145; Mil 75-76], (3) The Buddha had already been in previous births a Brahma (god) and a Mahabrahma [AN 4.88] hence it is meaningless and absurd in the equation to say Brahmabhu’to=Buddho [AN 5.22; DN 3.84; It 57 etc.], to assume that Brahman= Brahma (god) and that (4) the Buddha is explicitly “much more than a Mahabrahma" [DhA 2.60].

[DN 3.84] "The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'." (this passage also proves [from earlier context] that Brahma (god/s) is utterly different than the word Brahman).

[DN 1.249] “ I teach the way to the union with Brahman, I know the way to the supreme union with Brahman, and the path and means leading to Brahman, whereby the world of Brahman may be gained.”

[DN 1.248] ”all the peoples say that Gotama is the supreme teacher of the way leading to the Union with Brahman!”

[3.646 Pat-Att.] “To have become Brahman [is the meaning of] Brahmabhuto.”

[Atthakanipata-Att. 5.72] “To become Brahman is to become highest Svabhava (Self-nature).”

[It 57] “Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata.”

[SN 3.83] “Without taints, it meant ‘Become-Brahman’.”

[SN 5.5] “The Arya Eightfold Path is the designation for Brahmayana (path to Brahman).”

[MN 1.341] “The Soul is having become Brahman.”

[SN 4.117] "Found the ancient path leading to Brahman."

[Majjhima ii, 199] "These alone could conduce to the attainment of the Brahma-sahavyata or the attainment of the world of Brahman."
From https://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.c ... y-Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by SarathW »

What Buddha taught was Nibbana.
It is free from craving and soul.
When we say union with Brahama means craving for existence and a theory of soul is implied.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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cappuccino
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by cappuccino »

SarathW wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:05 pm theory of soul is implied.
why are you against soul?


there is no conclusion in this teaching
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cappuccino
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by cappuccino »

may.all.bliss wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:11 pm Came across this recently:

“Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata.”
Tathāgata is thought to mean "one who has thus gone" …

From Wikipedia
form
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by form »

What is....become highest Svabhava?
Ontheway
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by Ontheway »

Short answer: No for Buddhists' ultimate goal.

But Buddha did taught it for those wish to reborn in Brahma worlds.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Mr. Seek
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by Mr. Seek »

Essentially, AFAIK, you're quoting Ken Wheeler, alias Theoria Apophasis. Whether or not his suggestions are ultimately 'right', IMO, is irrelevant in terms of practice. I've read and watched most of his content on the matter, multiple times.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by Coëmgenu »

may.all.bliss wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:11 pm[DN 3.84] "The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'." (this passage also proves [from earlier context] that Brahma (god/s) is utterly different than the word Brahman).

[DN 1.249] “ I teach the way to the union with Brahman, I know the way to the supreme union with Brahman, and the path and means leading to Brahman, whereby the world of Brahman may be gained.”

[DN 1.248] ”all the peoples say that Gotama is the supreme teacher of the way leading to the Union with Brahman!”
They've stuck an N on the end of Brahma, as far as I can see. It is likely deliberately obfuscating. They want the Buddha saying Hindu things. What they have rendered as "become Brahman" is "brahmabhūta." They just stuck an N on it to make it seem more like modern Hinduism. When the Buddha compares his teaching to "Hinduism," he compares it to ancient Hinduism, not modern.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
may.all.bliss
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by may.all.bliss »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:12 pm
may.all.bliss wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:11 pm[DN 3.84] "The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'." (this passage also proves [from earlier context] that Brahma (god/s) is utterly different than the word Brahman).

[DN 1.249] “ I teach the way to the union with Brahman, I know the way to the supreme union with Brahman, and the path and means leading to Brahman, whereby the world of Brahman may be gained.”

[DN 1.248] ”all the peoples say that Gotama is the supreme teacher of the way leading to the Union with Brahman!”
They've stuck an N on the end of Brahma, as far as I can see. It is likely deliberately obfuscating. They want the Buddha saying Hindu things. What they have rendered as "become Brahman" is "brahmabhūta." They just stuck an N on it to make it seem more like modern Hinduism. When the Buddha compares his teaching to "Hinduism," he compares it to ancient Hinduism, not modern.
You know where I can find the original sources, where they mention brahmabhuta?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Dīghanikāya, Aggaññasutta, but also in other places. Ven Sujāto renders "Brahma" as "holiness" and "holy," "Tathāgata" as "Realized One," and "Dhamma" as "Truth." I'm not a personal fan of these renderings.
Tathāgatassa hetaṁ, vāseṭṭha, adhivacanaṁ ‘dhammakāyo’ itipi, ‘brahmakāyo’ itipi, ‘dhammabhūto’ itipi, ‘brahmabhūto’ itipi.
For these are terms for the Realized One: ‘the embodiment of truth’, and ‘the embodiment of holiness’, and ‘the one who has become the truth’, and ‘the one who has become holy’.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
auto
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:57 am Short answer: No for Buddhists' ultimate goal.

But Buddha did taught it for those wish to reborn in Brahma worlds.
Reborn in brahma world is different from having the status of a brahma, which is above gods and humans.

There are 4 castes of beings from beings who originally had no caste nor gender. This origin story happens in every life for everyone.
Their curiosity caused degeneration into different castes over the time. Brahmin is a term invented for those who meditate, but it doesn't constitute the origin story initial beings who has not yet degraded. Ascetics are those who had enough of this conundrum and renounced their livelihood and went homeless, it happens at last and doesn't depend on what caste.

Enlightened beings rise at the late stage of degeneration and the Brahmas can see it and they will know the signs when anagami who becomes a buddha reborns in a world. Brahma is also the one who suggest taking refugee under the Buddha.
Buddha lifespwan is 100 years compared to hundreds of thousands or billions of years of a Brahma.
Ontheway
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by Ontheway »

auto wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:00 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:57 am Short answer: No for Buddhists' ultimate goal.

But Buddha did taught it for those wish to reborn in Brahma worlds.
Reborn in brahma world is different from having the status of a brahma, which is above gods and humans.

There are 4 castes of beings from beings who originally had no caste nor gender. This origin story happens in every life for everyone.
Their curiosity caused degeneration into different castes over the time. Brahmin is a term invented for those who meditate, but it doesn't constitute the origin story initial beings who has not yet degraded. Ascetics are those who had enough of this conundrum and renounced their livelihood and went homeless, it happens at last and doesn't depend on what caste.

Enlightened beings rise at the late stage of degeneration and the Brahmas can see it and they will know the signs when anagami who becomes a buddha reborns in a world. Brahma is also the one who suggest taking refugee under the Buddha.
Buddha lifespwan is 100 years compared to hundreds of thousands or billions of years of a Brahma.
"Reborn in brahma world is different from having the status of a brahma, which is above gods and humans."

The Brahma status that you mentioned above is referred to MahaBrahma (yet he was foolish to think that way because there are more powerful beings above His realm).

The 4 Divine Abidings can lead to rebirth in realms such as Brahmaparisajja loka, Brahmapurohita loka, MahaBrahma loka ... And yes, the MahaBrahma is normally depicted as Superior Being compared to Devas, including those lesser Brahmas.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:46 pm "Reborn in brahma world is different from having the status of a brahma, which is above gods and humans."

The Brahma status that you mentioned above is referred to MahaBrahma (yet he was foolish to think that way because there are more powerful beings above His realm).

The 4 Divine Abidings can lead to rebirth in realms such as Brahmaparisajja loka, Brahmapurohita loka, MahaBrahma loka ... And yes, the MahaBrahma is normally depicted as Superior Being compared to Devas, including those lesser Brahmas.
My bad, yes. Brahma is also a heavenly being.

Trainee first knows about the khaya(ending) and then enlightenment follows in same lifetime.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.85/en/sujato wrote: As a trainee trains,
Sekhassa sikkhamānassa,
following the straight road,
ujumaggānusārino;
first they know about ending;
Khayasmiṁ paṭhamaṁ ñāṇaṁ,
enlightenment follows in the same lifetime.
tato aññā anantarā.

Then the knowledge comes
Tato aññāvimuttassa,
such a one, freed through enlightenment,
ñāṇaṁ ve hoti tādino;
with the end of the fetters of rebirth:
Akuppā me vimuttīti,
‘My freedom is unshakable.’”
bhavasaṁyojanakkhaye”ti.
The end refer to the cessation existence, i believe. Bhava is what ceases and thus no more rebirth in that place(loka). The buddha got enlightened but we still here, means the earth didn't cease even after his parinibbana.
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Assaji
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by Assaji »

may.all.bliss wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:11 pm Came across this recently:
These "quotes" are not to be taken seriously, many of them are intentional mistranslations. They have been already discussed on this forum. Once Ven. Yuttadhammo replied to them:
yuttadhammo wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:13 am Here's a passage more to the point (MN 83):
taṃ kho panānanda, kalyāṇaṃ vattaṃ na nibbidāya na virāgāya na nirodhāya na upasamāya na abhiññāya na sambodhāya na nibbānāya saṃvattati, yāvadeva brahmalokūpapattiyā. idaṃ kho panānanda, etarahi mayā kalyāṇaṃ vattaṃ nihitaṃ ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati. katamañcānanda, etarahi mayā kalyāṇaṃ vattaṃ nihitaṃ ekantanibbidāya virāgāya nirodhāya upasamāya abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati? ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo, seyyathidaṃ sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo , sammāsati, sammāsamādhi.
Trans (Bodhi, p. 696):
But that kind of good practice does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reappearance in the Brahma-world. But there is this kind of good practice that has been instituted by me now, which leads to complete disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. And what is that good practice? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration.
may.all.bliss
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Re: Did Buddha teach union with Brahman?

Post by may.all.bliss »

Assaji wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:22 am
may.all.bliss wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:11 pm Came across this recently:
These "quotes" are not to be taken seriously, many of them are intentional mistranslations. They have been already discussed on this forum. Once Ven. Yuttadhammo replied to them:
MN 83 is not among the quotes discussed
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