Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

Aldebaran wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:29 pm I assume he would have been as I've seen Indians which are virtually indistinguishable from Europeans but not as many nowadays it has to be said.
According to geneticist, Eske Willerslev, central Asia was still predominantly European(Indo-Aryans) 2000 years ago...It goes a little something like, Yamnaya people replaced the existing population, then came an extremely warlike people, Sintashta, who replaced the Yamnaya, and finally came a Turkic-like people who replaced the Sintastha...


"It's so dynamic and surprising that the Central Asian people we now call native actually are a new phenomenon, and until around 2,000 years ago they were European," says Willerslev.

https://sciencenordic.com/archaeology-b ... ge/1419103
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

When Europeans have kids with non-Europeans, right of inheritance belongs to these kids and not to some other non-related Europeans.

And those warlike Sintashta people were not some united ancestors of all modern Europeans, but in majority of R1a haplogroup, mostly spread in India, central Asia and among Slavs. Other than this haplogroup, there is some R1b, which is largest in Western Europe, but not more than it could be found among Slavs.

Out of mentioned people, their descendants are to be found only among non-Europeans. They never moved from Sintashta to Europe to leave offspring who could inherit their culture. But they did it in India, with like hundreds of millions having Sintashta-related genes.

These "Europeans" who moved to Sintashta previously came from Asia, most recently from Eurasian steppe.

So they were really Asians who just came back when moving to Sintashta.
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

According to geneticist, Eske Willerslev, central Asia was still predominantly European(Indo-Aryans) 2000 years ago...


And that's when mixing stopped in India, according to geneticists, after being rampant for more than 2000 years.

Meaning, it was the most rampant in period of 1500 years before Buddha, when it reached even the most isolated tribes.

In his time there was increasing social stratification, which culminated in mixing being condemned in religious texts few centuries after him.

And it was condemned between the castes, who were themselves already mixed.
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

Dweller wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:15 am When Europeans have kids with non-Europeans, right of inheritance belongs to these kids and not to some other non-related Europeans.

And those warlike Sintashta people were not some united ancestors of all modern Europeans, but in majority of R1a haplogroup, mostly spread in India, central Asia and among Slavs. Other than this haplogroup, there is some R1b, which is largest in Western Europe, but not more than it could be found among Slavs.

Out of mentioned people, their descendants are to be found only among non-Europeans. They never moved from Sintashta to Europe to leave offspring who could inherit their culture. But they did it in India, with like hundreds of millions having Sintashta-related genes.

These "Europeans" who moved to Sintashta previously came from Asia, most recently from Eurasian steppe.

So they were really Asians who just came back when moving to Sintashta.
Are you sure about that?

"In a paper published in Nature, the researchers show that northern Europeans seem to have a stronger genetic link to a particularly tall nomadic population from the Eurasian steppe who came to Europe around 4,500 years ago. Because of these genes, northern Europeans are still tall compared to others on the continent."

https://qz.com/561034/how-europeans-bec ... years-ago/
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

Kusala wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:03 am
Dweller wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:15 am When Europeans have kids with non-Europeans, right of inheritance belongs to these kids and not to some other non-related Europeans.

And those warlike Sintashta people were not some united ancestors of all modern Europeans, but in majority of R1a haplogroup, mostly spread in India, central Asia and among Slavs. Other than this haplogroup, there is some R1b, which is largest in Western Europe, but not more than it could be found among Slavs.

Out of mentioned people, their descendants are to be found only among non-Europeans. They never moved from Sintashta to Europe to leave offspring who could inherit their culture. But they did it in India, with like hundreds of millions having Sintashta-related genes.

These "Europeans" who moved to Sintashta previously came from Asia, most recently from Eurasian steppe.

So they were really Asians who just came back when moving to Sintashta.
Are you sure about that?

"In a paper published in Nature, the researchers show that northern Europeans seem to have a stronger genetic link to a particularly tall nomadic population from the Eurasian steppe who came to Europe around 4,500 years ago. Because of these genes, northern Europeans are still tall compared to others on the continent."

https://qz.com/561034/how-europeans-bec ... years-ago/
People from Eurasian steppe are not just those from Sintashta, but also those of R1b haplogroup, largest in Western Europe, who went to the West and never returned.

They are also those of R1a haplogroup who stayed in Eastern Europe, and never went to the direction of Sintashta.

But I was still wrong with my claim though, because some of the Slavs have genes from descendants of Sintashta via assimilation of Sarmatians and some other Iranic peoples.

However, they are only distant relatives of Indo-Aryans, who seperated from their common ancestors and went to the other side.
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

You seem to be trying to establish genetic and culural link between Northern Europeans and Indo-Aryans or at least with Proto-Indo-Iranians.

What haplogroup would be the connection, what cultural links are there, and how they fare when compared to such connections in modern Indians or even Slavs?

If they barely exist and are based on ancient proto-Germanic or even earlier cultures in which there are haplougroups now more widespread in Indians and Slavs, then why is it even relevant?
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by justindesilva »

Dweller wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:44 pm You seem to be trying to establish genetic and culural link between Northern Europeans and Indo-Aryans or at least with Proto-Indo-Iranians.

What haplogroup would be the connection, what cultural links are there, and how they fare when compared to such connections in modern Indians or even Slavs?

If they barely exist and are based on ancient proto-Germanic or even earlier cultures in which there are haplougroups now more widespread in Indians and Slavs, then why is it even relevant?
Recently I listened to a sermon by a monk in explanation that budda is termed neela netro, as a result of his wholesome nature of aloba, adosa and amoha. Because of his samma sambudda character his eyes glisten with blue colour and genetics does not come in here. His unblemished kamma has given him a perfect physical nature as a being.
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

His eyes could be blue.

I don't have enough knowledge about that, but as far as I can remember from listening somebody more knowledgable, they are described with the term which can mean black when describing skin color, but in the case of eyes it could really mean blue.
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1068
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Dweller wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:44 pm
And those warlike Sintashta people were not some united ancestors of all modern Europeans, but in majority of R1a haplogroup, mostly spread in India, central Asia and among Slavs. Other than this haplogroup, there is some R1b, which is largest in Western Europe, but not more than it could be found among Slavs.

What haplogroup would be the connection, what cultural links are there, and how they fare when compared to such connections in modern Indians or even Slavs?

It seems that for some, the issue is about feeling the need for connection and maintaining some racial identity beliefs so they can practice dhamma properly, even though it will be mostly a gross obstruction to practice.

No doubt it is fostering increased identity view clinging to a temporary form. Actually one could be reborn into any race, or even fall from the human state altogether. One finds various hair and eye colored dogs also so coloring is not a guarantee of much....

Regarding the subject, even among academic researchers there can be some implicit bias also, they sometimes wish to support their views if possible. The situation is far worse amongst the lay public trying to put together some story to fit their idealized self concept.


Looking at haplogroups though can be misleading I think and overly simplifies the issue.
Sometimes for example the male Y-haplogroup r1a1 (the unbroken line of male descent) has been associated with being supposedly the 'Aryan gene'.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... escendants

The evidence shows a back migration of this gene from somewhere near far Eastern Europe into the Indo Iranian region.
But what is misleading is where in the story we want to begin, and when do we do we identify them as 'Aryans'? Presumably when the language had formed.

Actually some of the oldest strains of r1a1 are found in India and Iran even present at high levels in some low castes in South India, having migrated earlier from somewhere near present day Kazakhstan and Siberia. From India and Iran they migrated and reached parts of Europe, and then have migrated back into Iran and India later supposedly 'as Aryans'. They were no doubt very dark skinned at the earlier time also.


So if we use this gene supposedly as a marker (which many think is too simplistic) do we say the Aryans 'originated' in Eastern Europe? Or in the Greater India region and Iran since they came to Europe from there? Or in Siberia? Or only when they lost sufficient skin color?

Village woman.jpg
Village woman.jpg (64.89 KiB) Viewed 1142 times
main-qimg-5831e5d2085da74b39d37e72f6532073-c.jpeg
R1a-thegeneticatlas.png
So it depends on the timeline we want to look at. People are very mixed and related when we start going back.

Basically it's a complex issue at this point and the field is still developing hugely, obviously for some their cherished self views are being overturned and much of the discussion you see is some level of coming to terms with this.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Dweller
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:14 pm

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

So if we use this gene supposedly as a marker (which many think is too simplistic) do we say the Aryans 'originated' in Eastern Europe? Or in the Greater India region and Iran since they came to Europe from there?

No Indo-Aryans ever came to Europe, other than Romani people and recent immigrants from Indian subcontinent.

Indo-Aryans originated from the people that separated from Indo-Iranians in central Asia, some went to Middle East, where their empire crumbled and some went to Indian subcontinent, where their descendants and their culture still lives.

When it comes to the people of R1a haplogroup who came to Sintashta from Europe, I also said they were really Asians who just came back in one of my previous posts. Point in highlighting the connection via common ancestors with Eastern Europeans in particular is that such a connection is lacking with Europeans as a whole.

People with this haplogroup in Europe, of course, are not Aryans because their common ancestors mostly separated even before Proto-Indo-Iranians came into being.

And I would be the last one to object to claim that Asia, India or somewhere around India is where they all came from.
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

Dweller wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:44 pm You seem to be trying to establish genetic and culural link between Northern Europeans and Indo-Aryans or at least with Proto-Indo-Iranians.

What haplogroup would be the connection, what cultural links are there, and how they fare when compared to such connections in modern Indians or even Slavs?

If they barely exist and are based on ancient proto-Germanic or even earlier cultures in which there are haplougroups now more widespread in Indians and Slavs, then why is it even relevant?
Proto-Indo Iranians are genetically related to Eastern Europeans and Northern Europeans...

Image

This gentleman is a non-European Iranian and his phenotype is common among Eastern Europeans and even Northern Europeans.

Image
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by confusedlayman »

I think present Bihari boys look like sakyan clan as they in same geography
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Cause_and_Effect
Posts: 1068
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:39 am

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Kusala wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:56 am
Proto-Indo Iranians are genetically related to Eastern Europeans and Northern Europeans...


This gentleman is a non-European Iranian and his phenotype is common among Eastern Europeans and even Northern Europeans.

Image
Indeed yes, perhaps you are getting it now...
White people are not a race, and Europe is not a continent.
Europe is simply the Western tip of Asia

Almost all of the major European haplogroups and populations came there via Asia.

This is true of the Indo-European source populations, which completed a circle coming into Europe via Iran and then coming back again in later millennia.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:25 pm I think present Bihari boys look like sakyan clan as they in same geography
That's a false assumption...people have been migrating to different parts of the globe since time immemorial...

This young lady from Afghanistan is a perfect example. She's Afghan, but looks "European".


Image

Image
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

justindesilva wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:13 pm
Dweller wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:44 pm You seem to be trying to establish genetic and culural link between Northern Europeans and Indo-Aryans or at least with Proto-Indo-Iranians.

What haplogroup would be the connection, what cultural links are there, and how they fare when compared to such connections in modern Indians or even Slavs?

If they barely exist and are based on ancient proto-Germanic or even earlier cultures in which there are haplougroups now more widespread in Indians and Slavs, then why is it even relevant?
Recently I listened to a sermon by a monk in explanation that budda is termed neela netro, as a result of his wholesome nature of aloba, adosa and amoha. Because of his samma sambudda character his eyes glisten with blue colour and genetics does not come in here. His unblemished kamma has given him a perfect physical nature as a being.
Interesting...I recall a conversation Bhikkhu Sujato had with a member over the subject...
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
Post Reply