Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

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Kusala
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:30 pm Buddha would not identify with his eyes or skin
You're right...but as a "puthujjana"(run of the mill), we're still attached...people have been in awe of the physical appearance of the Buddha for centuries...look no further than the poet, Matrceta...

In Praise of Form

Lovely yet calming, bright but not blinding, gentle
yet strong. Who would not be inspired just to see you?

The joy one feels on beholding you for the first time
does not diminish even after seeing you a hundred times.

Each time it is seen, your form gives joy;
its beauty is such that one is never satisfied.

Your body is worthy as a receptacle
and your virtues are worthy as occupants.
Both are excellent in themselves
and both complement each other perfectly.

Where else could the virtues of a Tathagata
be so well housed as in your body,
shining as it does with auspicious marks and signs?

Your body seems to say to your virtues:
"I am blessed to have you,"
and your virtues seem to respond:
"Where better could we dwell?"


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el360.html
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

Kusala wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 amThe real question is(to me atleast), just how mixed were the ancient Indians during the Buddha's time...

The real answer is that most of it already happened, after Buddha it started to stop, few centuries later there was first explicit condemnation of intermarriage in sacred texts, and 2000 years ago it mostly stopped completely. Mixing happened 4000-2000 years ago and it was rampant, reaching all of the most isolated tribes.

Genetics Proves Indian Population Mixture

Between 4,000 and 2,000 years ago, intermarriage in India was rampant.

Scientists from Harvard Medical School and the CSIR-Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in Hyderabad, India, provide evidence that modern-day India is the result of recent population mixture among divergent demographic groups.

The findings, published August 8 in the American Journal of Human Genetics, describe how India transformed from a country where mixture between different populations was rampant to one where endogamy—that is, marrying within the local community and a key attribute of the caste system—became the norm.
...

This genetic data tells us a three-part cultural and historical story,” said Reich, who is also an associate member of the Broad Institute. “Prior to about 4000 years ago there was no mixture. After that, widespread mixture affected almost every group in India, even the most isolated tribal groups. And finally, endogamy set in and froze everything in place.”

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/genetics-p ... on-mixture
The caste system in South Asia — which rigidly separates people into high, middle and lower classes — may have been firmly entrenched by about 2,000 years ago, a new genetic analysis suggests.
...

Aside from finding when the mixing started and stopped, the researchers also found the mixing was thorough, with even the most isolated tribes showing ancestry from both groups.
...

Early on, there were distinct classes of people — the priests, the nobility and the common people — but no mention of segregation or occupational restrictions. By about 3,000 years ago, the texts mention a fourth, lowest class: the Sudras. But it wasn't until about 100 B.C. that a holy text called the Manusmruti explicitly forbade intermarriage across castes.

https://www.livescience.com/amp/38751-g ... igins.html
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Kusala wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am
I've been called out for cherry-picking light-skinned Indians, but the thing is, light-skinned Indians are part the ruling class. And the Buddha was part the ruling class.
This is generally true, but we can be reminded also that the original ruling class in Europe who brought the Indo-European languages and culture were the swarthy Yamna Aryans not the blonde blue eyed Scandinavian hunter gatherers or light skinned Neolithic farmers...

The association of coloration and class has varied across time and across geographical zones.
Kusala wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am
We already know that upper caste Indians have certain amount of European/Caucasian dna as part their genetic makeup...The real question is(to me atleast), just how mixed were the ancient Indians during the Buddha's time...
Not quite. It's inaccurate to say Indians have 'European/Caucasian DNA'.

It would be more accurate to say that modern Europeans are a mixed population that share some of their ancestors with the groups which formed the modern Indian population which is also mixed.

According to Reich:
"It is likely, based on our analysis that the population that contributed genetic material to South Asia was (roughly) 60% Yamnaya, 30% European farmer-like ancestry and 10% Central Steppe hunter gatherer ancestry"
https://m.economictimes.com/news/scienc ... 556277.cms

This is what we had discussed about the Yamna migration in the above map where some went west and encountered European Neolithic farmers and hunter gatherers and picked up some lighter traits before heading East to form the Sintashta and then reaching Vedic India.

We know that the remainder of the Yamna went further west as they formed the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures where they mixed with more Western and Scandinavian Hunter gatherers to form the current European population. This modern population is very different genetically from the Sintashta and also varies significantly across different regions of Europe.

Even this is a simplified picture as Europeans also have Iranian Neolithic farmer ancestry (also linked to the Indus Valley) who had mixed with European Neolithic farmers as they moved Westward.

Oversimplifying the picture or projecting certain ideas about race doesn't really show anything apart from ones ideological viewpoint.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Europe's earliest culture is actually the Minoan Greeks.
I think the overemphasis on language as a mediator of culture skews things.

Similarly with the discussion about India almost no mention is given about the Dravidian culture of the Indus Valley which is where actual Yoga and the Sramana tradition that the Buddha was part of came from.
Similarly much of European culture came from the south of Europe via the Neolithic farmers who developed the earliest civilizations there.

minoan-civilization-en1.jpg

And what is Europe anyway? It's not actually a separate 'continent' it's just the western branch of the Eurasian landmass. Similarly the features and appearance we associate with 'whites' can be easily found amongst other ancient related populations with a slight modifying of a gene being expressed or not expressed. The issue is really about sanna and categorization.

MINOANARTMINOICOARTE7.jpg
"We show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus and Iran."
https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/rei ... e23310.pdf

ballynahatty_woman_Early_European Farmer.jpg

Attempts at taking this complex and evolving subject and simplifying into a photo of a Bollywood actor or random villager with certain features will not come off well as the field evolves and our knowledge increases.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

Just to say again that Buddhas and universal monarchs, as well as stories from previous rebirths are appearing in India, whenever is possible to identify the place. This happens in the setting of Indian culture of "brahmanas and shramanas" and can largely predate any supposed Aryan invasion.

Which is not necessarily in contradiction with the scientific hypothesis about it.

Timeframe is so vast that it leaves countless possibilities of appearance, disappearance and reappearance of peoples and cultures who could be part of the story.

Of course, none of this can be included in discussion about it from scientific point of view.
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:58 pm
Kusala wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am
I've been called out for cherry-picking light-skinned Indians, but the thing is, light-skinned Indians are part the ruling class. And the Buddha was part the ruling class.
This is generally true, but we can be reminded also that the original ruling class in Europe who brought the Indo-European languages and culture were the swarthy Yamna Aryans not the blonde blue eyed Scandinavian hunter gatherers or light skinned Neolithic farmers...

The association of coloration and class has varied across time and across geographical zones.
Kusala wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am
We already know that upper caste Indians have certain amount of European/Caucasian dna as part their genetic makeup...The real question is(to me atleast), just how mixed were the ancient Indians during the Buddha's time...
Not quite. It's inaccurate to say Indians have 'European/Caucasian DNA'.

It would be more accurate to say that modern Europeans are a mixed population that share some of their ancestors with the groups which formed the modern Indian population which is also mixed.

According to Reich:
"It is likely, based on our analysis that the population that contributed genetic material to South Asia was (roughly) 60% Yamnaya, 30% European farmer-like ancestry and 10% Central Steppe hunter gatherer ancestry"
https://m.economictimes.com/news/scienc ... 556277.cms

This is what we had discussed about the Yamna migration in the above map where some went west and encountered European Neolithic farmers and hunter gatherers and picked up some lighter traits before heading East to form the Sintashta and then reaching Vedic India.

We know that the remainder of the Yamna went further west as they formed the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures where they mixed with more Western and Scandinavian Hunter gatherers to form the current European population. This modern population is very different genetically from the Sintashta and also varies significantly across different regions of Europe.

Even this is a simplified picture as Europeans also have Iranian Neolithic farmer ancestry (also linked to the Indus Valley) who had mixed with European Neolithic farmers as they moved Westward.

Oversimplifying the picture or projecting certain ideas about race doesn't really show anything apart from ones ideological viewpoint.
Are you telling me this blonde blue eyed boy from Iran is genetically different from modern Scandinavians?

Image


"A June 2015 study published in Nature found the people of the Nordic Bronze Age to be closely genetically related to the Corded Ware culture, the Beaker culture and the Unetice culture. People of the Nordic Bronze Age and Corded Ware show the highest lactose tolerance among Bronze Age Europeans. The study suggested that the Sintashta culture, and its succeeding Andronovo culture, represented an eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples. Numerous cultural similarities between the Nordic Bronze, the Sintastha/Andronovo culture and peoples described in the Rigveda have been detected.[a]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Kusala wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:51 am

Are you telling me this blonde blue eyed boy from Iran is genetically different from modern Scandinavians?

Image
Yes. And so is this South Indian girl missing skin and hair color gene expression.
IMG_3074.JPG
Phenotype is only one expression of genotype.

We are not denying that there there has been a migration of Central Asian Yamna people into India who came into contact with the Corded Ware where they picked up a bit of European farmer-like genes, and likewise before that there was a migration of Iranian farmers westwards into Europe that came into contact with European farmers in the Neolithic. But appearances are only one part of the story.

main-qimg-ac30c58c59f1dffd2102a0f4961b0dfc.jpeg

As we see here, the fair Kalash are much more closely related to other Indian groups than they are to Scandinavians, sharing mainly Indus Valley farmer ancestry with Steppe ancestry and varying proportion of hunter gatherer.

5430658898_14c4e9eb9d_b.jpg

Social selection has caused the skin and hair lightening in the North of India as in Europe over the millenia which a study was already posted about.

I also think it's better you quote actual sources not wikipedia directly.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Kusala
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:18 am
Kusala wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:51 am

Are you telling me this blonde blue eyed boy from Iran is genetically different from modern Scandinavians?

Image
Yes. And so is this South Indian girl missing skin and hair color gene expression.

IMG_3074.JPG

Phenotype is only one expression of genotype.

We are not denying that there there has been a migration of Central Asian Yamna people into India who came into contact with the Corded Ware where they picked up a bit of European farmer-like genes, and likewise before that there was a migration of Iranian farmers westwards into Europe that came into contact with European farmers in the Neolithic. But appearances are only one part of the story.


main-qimg-ac30c58c59f1dffd2102a0f4961b0dfc.jpeg


As we see here, the fair Kalash are much more closely related to other Indian groups than they are to Scandinavians, sharing mainly Indus Valley farmer ancestry with Steppe ancestry and varying proportion of hunter gatherer.


5430658898_14c4e9eb9d_b.jpg


Social selection has caused the skin and hair lightening in the North of India as in Europe over the millenia which a study was already posted about.

I also think it's better you quote actual sources not wikipedia directly.
What do you make of this red head Indian girl? According to David Reynolds, there were still "red-haired" Brahmins..."In ancient northern India blue-eyed people of Aryan ancestry, especially among the upper classes, were much more common than nowadays, as is evidenced by old texts referring to red-haired, blue-eyed Brahmins. (I think I remember reading that the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, who lived a few hundred years after the Buddha’s time, mentions these rather European-looking holy men.)" https://politicallyincorrectdharma.blog ... -eyes.html

Image
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Kusala
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

Tennok wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 4:26 pm
zerotime wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:10 pm just to say the idea about some physical appearance of the Buddha can be a personal issue. Probably for many people this is part of their relation with the Buddha. So I think not very right forcing others to believe this or that. Specially when we don't have that exact knowledge. If you think the Buddha was blonde, that's your belief. Fortunately the variety was enough diverse at those times and lands, so not problem to choose some image.
It's not my belief, zerotime. It's my joke. Tongue in cheek. But I'm sorry, if I offended you.

But I do believe that Indoeuropeans shared some psychical features and Buddha was, most likely, one of them.

And I do believe that there could be some cultural tensions between Indoeuropeans and Dravidians at the times of Buddha. We don't need any modern, anachronistic ideas to support such notion. You seem to know history well, so don't you agree, that in many cases, ruling class comes to power by force? Like Franks in France, or Normans in England. Buddha likely belonged to such "opressor" group, had good ties with king and elite, yet wandered though remote, rural areas. That's interesting position to take, and bit tricky.

Btw, class divisions are possible to exist long before Marxism. In my country, Poland, 10 % of society, so called "nobles", lived separated from other groups, exploiting or even enslaving them, since late medieval period until late XIX Century. The idea of "three estates" was well established in whole medieval Europe, and it was pretty similiar to varnas in India. The warriors, the clergy and the workers.

On course, Dhamma was and is aimed at ending of Dukkha, and identity views, inluding any "ethinic" or "class" attachments, are obstacle on the Path.The idea of giving up one's previous, secular identity, clan pride and attachment to language and customs, often appears in the Suttas. Shaving was just a part of it, I guess. And beard is also a masculinity and sexual identity symbol, so to shave it off was an act of vossagga.
Another characteristic of the Buddha that makes him "Aryan" in the physical sense is his "height"...I posted this way back...viewtopic.php?t=7145

"According to DN 30, the spread of the Buddha's arms, outstretched, was equal to his height. Because a person's cubit is one-fourth the spread of his outstretched arms, this would put the Buddha's height at 2 meters, or approximately 6 feet 7 inches. The origin story to Pc 92 states that his half-brother, Nanda, was four fingerbreadths shorter than he, and that when bhikkhus saw him coming from afar, they would mistake him for the Buddha, partly on the basis of his tall height. One fingerbreadth is said to be 1/24 cubit, or a little more than 2 cm. by this reckoning, which would put Nanda at 1.92 meters, or approximately 6 feet 4 inches tall."
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

Kusala wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:51 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:58 pm
Kusala wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am
I've been called out for cherry-picking light-skinned Indians, but the thing is, light-skinned Indians are part the ruling class. And the Buddha was part the ruling class.
This is generally true, but we can be reminded also that the original ruling class in Europe who brought the Indo-European languages and culture were the swarthy Yamna Aryans not the blonde blue eyed Scandinavian hunter gatherers or light skinned Neolithic farmers...

The association of coloration and class has varied across time and across geographical zones.
Kusala wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:45 am
We already know that upper caste Indians have certain amount of European/Caucasian dna as part their genetic makeup...The real question is(to me atleast), just how mixed were the ancient Indians during the Buddha's time...
Not quite. It's inaccurate to say Indians have 'European/Caucasian DNA'.

It would be more accurate to say that modern Europeans are a mixed population that share some of their ancestors with the groups which formed the modern Indian population which is also mixed.

According to Reich:
"It is likely, based on our analysis that the population that contributed genetic material to South Asia was (roughly) 60% Yamnaya, 30% European farmer-like ancestry and 10% Central Steppe hunter gatherer ancestry"
https://m.economictimes.com/news/scienc ... 556277.cms

This is what we had discussed about the Yamna migration in the above map where some went west and encountered European Neolithic farmers and hunter gatherers and picked up some lighter traits before heading East to form the Sintashta and then reaching Vedic India.

We know that the remainder of the Yamna went further west as they formed the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures where they mixed with more Western and Scandinavian Hunter gatherers to form the current European population. This modern population is very different genetically from the Sintashta and also varies significantly across different regions of Europe.

Even this is a simplified picture as Europeans also have Iranian Neolithic farmer ancestry (also linked to the Indus Valley) who had mixed with European Neolithic farmers as they moved Westward.

Oversimplifying the picture or projecting certain ideas about race doesn't really show anything apart from ones ideological viewpoint.
Are you telling me this blonde blue eyed boy from Iran is genetically different from modern Scandinavians?

Image


"A June 2015 study published in Nature found the people of the Nordic Bronze Age to be closely genetically related to the Corded Ware culture, the Beaker culture and the Unetice culture. People of the Nordic Bronze Age and Corded Ware show the highest lactose tolerance among Bronze Age Europeans. The study suggested that the Sintashta culture, and its succeeding Andronovo culture, represented an eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples. Numerous cultural similarities between the Nordic Bronze, the Sintastha/Andronovo culture and peoples described in the Rigveda have been detected.[a]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age
Yes, ancient similarity is R1a haplogroup most common in Slavs, higher caste Indians and also present in Iran and central Asia.

In Nordics is more common with founders of cultures than with modern peoples.

Image
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Tennok
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Tennok »

Interesting article, which covers many different theories of Aryan and Dravidian migrations, relations, and their spiritual concepts. For those gizzards here, who, like me, are not satisfied by pictures and memes.

https://www.integralworld.net/bjonnes1.html

It's interesting, becouse it shows, that ethnic history of India is still a field of a fierce scholary battle. It's not like this one guy form Harvard, Reich, came and settled everything, far from that. There are tons of theories and chronologies, etc.

So perhaps we shall take all of them with a grain of salt.
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Kusala »

TRobinson465 wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:21 am
Kusala wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:49 am
Aldebaran wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:29 pm I assume he would have been as I've seen Indians which are virtually indistinguishable from Europeans but not as many nowadays it has to be said.
A picture(s) is worth more than a thousand words. According to geneticists the warrior/aristocratic caste(Kshatriya) and priestly caste(Brahmin) have a certain of amount of European/Caucasian admixture...India today is highly mixed, but during the Buddha's time, the ruling class rarely mixed outside their race. We see it in the origin story of the Sakyan clan. The Sakyans were very prideful and refused to mixed outside of their race...which, unfortunately, led to the destruction of their kingdom...

Image

Image

Image

Image
As blue eyes is a recessive trait i think the fact that they wouldnt mix actually increases the chance one of them would have blue eyes. There are literally cases of people in africa with blonde hair, so i honestly dont think its that unlikely. That or maybe his eye color was different from the standard brown and so people called it blue. There are plenty of people in Afghanistan with pale blue or green eyes. and that part of the world isnt that far from where the Lord Buddha lived. We should get it out of our heads that white people are the only people capable of not having black hair and brown eyes.

As the Lord Buddha was exceptional its totally possible he was one of these relatively rare cases of having such an eye color in that part of the world. Being light skinned is not that unusual in that part of the world, my Nepalese friend is light skinned, but black haired and brown eyed. One of my close friends is also quite light skinned while her brother is somewhat dark skinned. Genetics is complicated.

It is also possible the texts are simply exaggerating (for instance the Lord Buddha having "golden skin" probably does not mean literally gold in color) or perhaps we are mistranslating the wording due to millenias of knowledge decay (think the meaning of "gay" back in the 50s and the meaning now). Maha Moggallana was said to have blue skin, which actually is a possible skin real life skin condition, but people generally agree it probably meant "dark" skin.
Genetics is complicated, but also fascinating...I've noticed mixed Indians tend to look more European...Indians are anthropologically Caucasian, so European genes are more pronounced...

Image

Image
"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Aloka »

SDC wrote: Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:08 pm Why exactly does it need consideration?
:goodpost: Absolutely!

It's the Buddha's teachings that I'm interested in, not speculating about what his appearance was like and looking at random photos of strangers.

:anjali:
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Dweller »

Modern Indians are these Aryans people are talking about.

They are descendants of those ancient Aryans both culturally and genetically.

So why would somebody else non-related to them and of completely different culture had greater claim to Aryan heritage?

Skin adaption to climate resulting in greater depigmentation made them greater Aryans, who are otherwise not related to them in any way whatsoever?

:lol:
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Re: Was the Buddha a blue-eyed light skinned Aryan?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Kusala wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:10 am Indians are anthropologically Caucasian, so European genes are more pronounced...
I think this is the mistake you are stuck on. The 'caucasian' category of people does not originate in Europe. They originate around the Caucasus mountain regions hence the name. This, and nearby regions of Iran and Anatolia are very roughly where the Yamna, Indus Valley farmers and 'European' Neolithic farmers are all thought to have originated from (with a much more ancient migration out of Africa of course). This is the current understanding which will be updated and clarified as time progresses.

From there these groups have made bidirectional migrations into both Europe and India.
These people would have been somewhat dark, and have kept the darker color in the Indian climate and lost it in Europe. There have also been social selection pressures causing this skin lightening over time. So the resemblance is due to ancient shared ancestry. They also mixed with native hunter gatherers in both regions who were much more distantly related.

1920px-Indo-European_expansions.jpg
We have discussed that there has been a link between the Sintashta and the Eastern Corded Ware/Fatyanova culture also.

As to 'Aryan' the term is only known to have been used by the Indo-Iranians. And even the oldest Aryan text the Rig Veda has got deep Dravidian as well as Munda influence in the language.

https://books.google.com.sg/books?id=OZ ... edir_esc=y

So it does not look like the Vedas were something simply 'brought into' India. Rather, the Vedas seem to have been composed over a period of integration in India between the ancient Indus Valley civilization and the incoming Aryans. As noted we do not find the equivalent of Vedas in other regions such as Europe although we do find some of the same gods. But we only really find an equivalent in the Avestas of Old Iran again suggesting it was a symbiosis that occured in this region.

The Sramana tradition is also thought to have originated in the Indus Valley, which was the birth of yoga and likely the source of the systems of jhana meditation that we are practicing today and which the Buddha took on as part of the path to Enlightenment.
Yoga-in-Indus-Valley-Civilization.jpg

indus-valley-03.jpg
https://www.vedicupasanapeeth.org/2700- ... ical-site/

Since the Buddha rejected the authority of the Vedas, and since he is of the Sramanic lineage it is this that is actually more significant for us on the Buddhist path when it comes to tradition.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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