Kamma vipaka an obsolete

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
asahi
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:42 am
asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:25 am No , on the contrary it go agaisnt the concept of fixed vipaka kamma . Precisely , all those ordinary unenlightened people without having notion of kamma vipaka ,
yet they go agaisnt the kamma vipaka teachings .
Why said that the concept of kamma vipaka is fixed?
Yes , kamma vipaka is fixed , you have to experience it before get release from the effect . Angulimala has to experience the kamma vipaka before get to free from it and thereafter enter nibbana .
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SarathW
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:32 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:28 am
asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:21 am

Could you not read ? The above says vipaka that is thought fixed as in Theravada buddhism now are not fixed .
Btw , which sutta says the vipaka can be changed ?
Where did the sutta says vipaka means Vipaka Citta ?
You became ugly due to your past bad Kamma. So that is the Vipaka.
Now you have the choice to go to a plastic surgeon and get the face you like. (Vipaka can't stop your effort)
Please provide evidence to support your saying . According to sutta (forgotten which) it says , one has to experience all the past kamma before liberation .
It appears you have very little knowledge of Kamma and Vipaka.
Please read The Result section.


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Bundokji
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:50 am Yes , kamma vipaka is fixed , you have to experience it before get release from the effect . Angulimala has to experience the kamma vipaka before get to free from it and thereafter enter nibbana .
Can you quote a sutta where it says kamma vipaka is fixed? Had it been fixed in the case of Ven. Angulimala, the Buddha would not have told him:
"Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:52 am
It appears you have very little knowledge of Kamma and Vipaka.
Please read The Result section.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... ml#results
First James said i am shallow . Now you .
So you have a very deep knowledge of kamma n vipaka . Why not first refrain from bad mouth .
So how did you get to be very knowledgeable about kamma vipaka if it is
"not to be speculated about" ?!
Please share some of your deep knowledge to enlighten everyone . :thanks:
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asahi
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:58 am "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!"

Already two person said i have little knowledge of kamma n vipaka , so i have to admit it . Buddha says it is not to be speculated about . It happened that
Angulimala didnt escaped the kamma , but was push forward get ripen and concentrated by his attaintment .
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Bundokji
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:24 am Already two person said i have little knowledge of kamma n vipaka , so i have to admit it . Buddha says it is not to be speculated about . It happened that
Angulimala didnt escaped the kamma , but was push forward get ripen and concentrated by his attaintment .
In my limited understanding, what is fixed is that actions have consequences (which makes kamma vipaka a law), but neither the actions nor the consequences are taught to be fixed.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sakka
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by sakka »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:03 am Today cosmetic surgery are able to change a person facial outlook or even body contour . Does this means the notion of kamma going to be made obsolete ?
This thread is really strange since cause and effect is one thing and kamma-vipaka something else. While kamma-vipaka is the result of intentional actions/speech and thoughts. Cause and effect is not.

Like a monk mentions in a dhamma talk: If someone is driving a car and hits a small child there is still the cause and effect = the family might beat him up, take him to court and sue him, He might get depressed over the car accident involving the little child and feel really bad etc.

But since the driver never had the intention of actually hitting the child with the car kamma-vipaka is something else compared to cause and effect.
So nothing is really fixed in the way that it is being said in this thread.
If we take kamma-vipaka + cause and effect into account and really think about it, this will probably make us go insane…

So a thing like prosthesis is a really good thing while plastic surgery
for only ”beautification” of the body/face whatever is just shallow nonsense…But then again if some jealous idiot threw acid on a woman's face and she decided to have plastic surgery after the incident that is a whole nother thing and not shallow nonsense at all… So no wonder speculation of kamma-vipaka can drive one mad/insane… :jawdrop:
Last edited by sakka on Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
asahi
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:32 am
asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:24 am Already two person said i have little knowledge of kamma n vipaka , so i have to admit it . Buddha says it is not to be speculated about . It happened that
Angulimala didnt escaped the kamma , but was push forward get ripen and concentrated by his attaintment .
In my limited understanding, what is fixed is that actions have consequences (which makes kamma vipaka a law), but neither the actions nor the consequences are taught to be fixed.
The meaning fixed here such as when the Buddha tried 3 times to stop the King to kill the Sakyan clan , but to no avail in that sense it was said the kamma vipaka cannot be escaped . This i heard many talks many times from different monks gave .
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Bundokji
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:10 pm The meaning fixed here such as when the Buddha tried 3 times to stop the King to kill the Sakyan clan , but to no avail in that sense it was said the kamma vipaka cannot be escaped . This i heard many talks many times from different monks gave .
The king still massacred the Sakayn clan despite the Buddha's attempt. Had the kamma vipaka of the king been fixed, the Buddha would not have attempt to stop him. The fact that he had the chance to escape it and he did not does not make kamma vipaka fixed.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:19 pm
asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:10 pm The meaning fixed here such as when the Buddha tried 3 times to stop the King to kill the Sakyan clan , but to no avail in that sense it was said the kamma vipaka cannot be escaped . This i heard many talks many times from different monks gave .
The king still massacred the Sakayn clan despite the Buddha's attempt. Had the kamma vipaka of the king been fixed, the Buddha would not have attempt to stop him. The fact that he had the chance to escape it and he did not does not make kamma vipaka fixed.
No , it is the other way round according to the sutta and those talks from monks . Anyway if you want to think the opposite or differently that is not something fixed i can say .

Regards .

:console:
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SarathW
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:20 am
SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:52 am
It appears you have very little knowledge of Kamma and Vipaka.
Please read The Result section.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stu ... ml#results
First James said i am shallow . Now you .
So you have a very deep knowledge of kamma n vipaka . Why not first refrain from bad mouth .
So how did you get to be very knowledgeable about kamma vipaka if it is
"not to be speculated about" ?!
Please share some of your deep knowledge to enlighten everyone . :thanks:
You are the one who speculate about it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:14 am You are the one who speculate about it.
Good lord ! This is a forum .
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DooDoot
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:21 amI prefer to see kamma-vipaka in terms of feelings, such as pleasure and pain.
The above sounds questionable because feelings without craving, attachment & becoming are not dukkha. AN 6.63 says:
And what is the diversity of deeds?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, kammānaṁ vemattatā?

There are deeds experienced in hell, the animal realm, the ghost realm, the human world and the world of the gods.

Atthi, bhikkhave, kammaṁ nirayavedanīyaṁ, atthi kammaṁ tiracchānayonivedanīyaṁ, atthi kammaṁ pettivisayavedanīyaṁ, atthi kammaṁ manussalokavedanīyaṁ, atthi kammaṁ devalokavedanīyaṁ.

This is called the diversity of deeds.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammānaṁ vemattatā.


And what is the result of deeds?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, kammānaṁ vipāko?

The result of deeds is threefold, I say:
Tividhāhaṁ, bhikkhave, kammānaṁ vipākaṁ vadāmi—

here & now, later or at some other later time.
diṭṭheva dhamme, upapajje vā, apare vā pariyāye.

This is called the result of deeds.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, kammānaṁ vipāko.

AN 6.63
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mjaviem
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by mjaviem »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:59 am change is the teaching, such is the reality
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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Kamma vipaka an obsolete

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:10 pm
The meaning fixed here such as when the Buddha tried 3 times to stop the King to kill the Sakyan clan , but to no avail in that sense it was said the kamma vipaka cannot be escaped . This i heard many talks many times from different monks gave .
I think a lot of context needs to be in. Let's try to understand what the talks means. It means that once the action is done, the results would appear. However, there's a lot of qualifications to the fruition of the results.

1. Results can be smaller or bigger than the cause, in particular, if one attains to the path and fruits, then the results of bad kamma would be lesser in comparison.

2. Regardless of the results would appear anyway, the teachings of the Buddha never advocated that we cannot try to prevent it or stop it if we can. If we think we cannot stop suffering, it's just resultant kamma, it makes compassion practise a joke. No need to donate to feed hungry children in Africa. Don't need to go to the doctor when you're ill, it's all resultant. No. Part of what makes kamma in our control is that we need to see if present actions can have an impact to change present conditions. The Buddha and 2 Arahants, when they were sick, they requested another monk to chant the 7 factors of enlightenment to them. After hearing it and rejoicing in it, their sickness disappeared. So even for arahants who cannot generate any kamma, they can still manipulate/ change conditions to make resultants go away.

The Buddha also critized the Jains for not knowing and seeing how much bad kamma they had burned away from practising self torture, cannot verify their doctrine personally. It's exactly by putting themselves in torture, present actions, which leads to the present results of painful feelings, instead of past causes. So as a general guide, if it's possible to remove the conditions for suffering, it's ok to remove them. It's even an act of compassion towards self and others.

3. Beauty is a form of conditioning as well. Just because in the past certain conditions the ancients are helpless to change, doesn't make it impossible to change conditions in the future as humanity gains more power via technology. The law of kamma is just cause + conditions = results. It doesn't say that conditions must be fixed. It's because of the uncertainty of conditions, that we don't see instant kamma all the time. And some conditions is in our control, power to change, some are not. It's ok to change conditions to reduce suffering. That's the utopian dream. However, as Buddhists, we know the true liberation from suffering is to end ignorance, end rebirth, thereby end the cruel oppression of the law of kamma.
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