Kamma vipaka an obsolete

[asahi]

Today cosmetic surgery are able to change a person facial outlook or even body contour . Does this means the notion of kamma going to be made obsolete ?

[DooDoot]

no. the word "ugly" in MN 135 does not appear to refer to physical ugliness

An irritable person, overcome and overwhelmed by anger, is ugly, even though they’re nicely bathed and anointed, with hair and beard dressed and wearing white clothes. This is the first thing that pleases and assists an enemy which comes upon (āgacchati) an irritable woman or man. Because an enemy doesn’t like to have a beautiful (vaṇṇavatāya) enemy. When a person is irritable, overcome and overwhelmed by anger, the rulers seize the legitimate wealth (bhogā) they’ve earned by their efforts, built up with their own hands, gathered by the sweat of their brow.

An angry person is ugly (dubbaṇṇo) and sleeps poorly. Gaining a profit, he turns it into a loss, having done damage with word & deed. A person overwhelmed with anger destroys his wealth (dhanajāni). Maddened with anger, he falls into disgrace (āyasakyaṃ). Relatives, friends, & colleagues avoid him. Anger brings loss. Anger inflames the mind. He doesn’t realize that his danger is born (jāta) from within. Doing these deeds that kill beings and do violence to himself, the angry person doesn’t realize that he’s ruined. The snare of death (maccupāso) in the form of anger lies hidden in the heart. You should cut it out by self-control, by wisdom (paññā), energy and right ideas.

AN 7.64

[SarathW]

No.
There are five Niyama's and Kamma is only one of them. (Utu, Biju,Dhamma,Citta, Kamma)
What you showed was an example for Utu Niyama or perhaps Citta Niyama.

[cappuccino]

Today cosmetic surgery are able to change a person

change is the teaching, such is the reality

[asahi]

No.
There are five Niyama's and Kamma is only one of them. (Utu, Biju,Dhamma,Citta, Kamma)
What you showed was an example for Utu Niyama or perhaps Citta Niyama.

No that is incorrect . Not in five niyama group .

[JamesTheGiant]

cosmetic surgery are able to change a person facial outlook or even body contour . Does this means the notion of kamma going to be made obsolete ?

You think kamma is only about facial looks or body contour? That's so shallow. Kamma goes deep.

[un8-]

I prefer to see kamma-vipaka in terms of feelings, such as pleasure and pain. Take the leper suppabuddha who spat on a paccekabuddha in a previous life for example, he was reborn was lepersy, which is painful, then after hearing the buddha, and becoming ariya, he dies and was reborn a deva, where there is a lot of pleasure.

Feelings are immediate and you can see them ripen here and now. If you have bad thoughts and speech, the result is bad feelings. Bad/good Intention -> bad/good thoughts -> sense-contact -> bad/good feelings

So no, cosmetic surgery doesn't change anything.

[asahi]

cosmetic surgery are able to change a person facial outlook or even body contour . Does this means the notion of kamma going to be made obsolete ?

You think kamma is only about facial looks or body contour? That's so shallow. Kamma goes deep.

The above is a question . Probably you are far-sighted . I meant because of vipaka get to change therefore the cause (kamma) get to change also . In ancient times , if you are born ugly means vipaka is fixed you cant change it for lifetime whereas today technology change the vipaka therefore it is not a fixed thing anymore .

[Bundokji]

You would still be held hostage to how others perceive you if it matters to you. As such, the logic of kamma vipaka stands.

[SarathW]

cosmetic surgery are able to change a person facial outlook or even body contour . Does this means the notion of kamma going to be made obsolete ?

You think kamma is only about facial looks or body contour? That's so shallow. Kamma goes deep.

The above is a question . Probably you are far-sighted . I meant because of vipaka get to change therefore the cause (kamma) get to change also . In ancient times , if you are born ugly means vipaka is fixed you cant change it for lifetime whereas today technology change the vipaka therefore it is not a fixed thing anymore .

Are you saying that we should sit and do nothing because of Vipaka?
Buddha did not teach fatalism.
You can change the effect of your past Kamma by your effort otherwise you will never attain Nibbana.
Another point to remember is when we say Vipaka it means Vipaka Citta. (not about your physical body)

[asahi]

Are you saying that we should sit and do nothing because of Vipaka?
Buddha did not teach fatalism.
You can change the effect of your past Kamma by your effort otherwise you will never attain Nibbana.
Another point to remember is when we say Vipaka it means Vipaka Citta. (not about your physical body)

Could you not read ? The above says vipaka that is thought fixed as in Theravada buddhism now are not fixed .
Btw , which sutta says the vipaka can be changed ?
Where did the sutta says vipaka means Vipaka Citta ?

[asahi]

You would still be held hostage to how others perceive you if it matters to you. As such, the logic of kamma vipaka stands.

No , on the contrary it go agaisnt the concept of fixed vipaka kamma . Precisely , all those ordinary unenlightened people without having notion of kamma vipaka ,
yet they go agaisnt the kamma vipaka teachings .

[SarathW]

Are you saying that we should sit and do nothing because of Vipaka?
Buddha did not teach fatalism.
You can change the effect of your past Kamma by your effort otherwise you will never attain Nibbana.
Another point to remember is when we say Vipaka it means Vipaka Citta. (not about your physical body)

Could you not read ? The above says vipaka that is thought fixed as in Theravada buddhism now are not fixed .
Btw , which sutta says the vipaka can be changed ?
Where did the sutta says vipaka means Vipaka Citta ?

You became ugly due to your past bad Kamma. So that is the Vipaka.
Now you have the choice to go to a plastic surgeon and get the face you like. (Vipaka can't stop your effort)

[asahi]

Are you saying that we should sit and do nothing because of Vipaka?
Buddha did not teach fatalism.
You can change the effect of your past Kamma by your effort otherwise you will never attain Nibbana.
Another point to remember is when we say Vipaka it means Vipaka Citta. (not about your physical body)

Could you not read ? The above says vipaka that is thought fixed as in Theravada buddhism now are not fixed .
Btw , which sutta says the vipaka can be changed ?
Where did the sutta says vipaka means Vipaka Citta ?

You became ugly due to your past bad Kamma. So that is the Vipaka.
Now you have the choice to go to a plastic surgeon and get the face you like. (Vipaka can't stop your effort)

Please provide evidence to support your saying . According to sutta (forgotten which) it says , one has to experience all the past kamma before liberation .

[Bundokji]

No , on the contrary it go agaisnt the concept of fixed vipaka kamma . Precisely , all those ordinary unenlightened people without having notion of kamma vipaka ,
yet they go agaisnt the kamma vipaka teachings .

Why said that the concept of kamma vipaka is fixed? Still, if people seek changing their looks through a cosmetic surgery, they might get disappointed in case the surgery does not produce"the striking effect" that it is meant to produce.