telling parents about renunciation

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auto
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telling parents about renunciation

Post by auto »

Finally brave enough to start tell about renunciation openly, telling them like they are not my friend anymore.
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

auto wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:47 pm Finally brave enough to start tell about renunciation openly, telling them like they are not my friend anymore.
Do let your teachers who would ordain you know that you don't believe in no self. They wouldn't be able to ordain you unless you intellectually accept no self.

Edit: Sorry, not grounds for not ordaining you, but as a novice, it's ground for expulsion, see below.
Last edited by DiamondNgXZ on Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 am Do let your teachers who would ordain you know that you don't believe in no self. They wouldn't be able to ordain you unless you intellectually accept no self.
sounds strange... never hear that before
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SarathW
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by SarathW »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 am
auto wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:47 pm Finally brave enough to start tell about renunciation openly, telling them like they are not my friend anymore.
Do let your teachers who would ordain you know that you don't believe in no self. They wouldn't be able to ordain you unless you intellectually accept no self.
Who said this?
Please provide Sutta reference.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:11 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 am Do let your teachers who would ordain you know that you don't believe in no self. They wouldn't be able to ordain you unless you intellectually accept no self.
sounds strange... never hear that before
SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:33 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 am
auto wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:47 pm Finally brave enough to start tell about renunciation openly, telling them like they are not my friend anymore.
Do let your teachers who would ordain you know that you don't believe in no self. They wouldn't be able to ordain you unless you intellectually accept no self.
Who said this?
Please provide Sutta reference.
Ok, sorry, not prohibition from ordination, but as a novice, it's ground for expulsion. And it's just common sense for monks not to want to ordain others with wrong views, it's not possible for others to disrobe monks, unless the monks themselves break parajika or they themselves willingly want to disrobe. So imagine the serious damage to the Sangha of ordaining a person with wrong views, not wishing to change that wrong view (despite many years of advice, teachings, explanations etc from those with right views), eventually passing on that wrong view to the latter generations.

Those who are ordained in other religions has to spend 4 months in probation as a novice, so at the very least, we can see that Buddha doesn't want people actively holding wrong views being fully ordained.

“Expulsion

As stated under Pc 70, a misbehaving novice may be subject to two types of expulsion: expulsion from his status as a novice and expulsion as a punishment. As with punishment, expulsion is the responsibility of the novice’s mentor. Pc 70 covers the second form of expulsion. Here we will discuss the first.
There are ten grounds for a novice’s expulsion:
he is a taker of life,
he is a taker of what is not given,
he engages in unchastity,
he is a speaker of lies,
he is a drinker of intoxicants,
he speaks dispraise of the Buddha,
he speaks dispraise of the Dhamma,
he speaks dispraise of the Saṅgha,
he holds wrong views, or
he is a molester of a bhikkhunī.

The Commentary details the extent to which any of these acts would subject the novice to expulsion: with regard to the first precept, killing ants or smashing bed bug eggs; with regard to the second, stealing a blade of grass; with regard to the third, genital, anal, or oral intercourse; with regard to the fourth, telling a lie even in jest; with regard to the fifth, intentionally drinking alcohol. As stated above, a novice who commits “any of these acts has broken his Triple Refuge. If he sees the error of his ways, he may take the Triple Refuge again. If not, he should be expelled from his status as a novice.

Dispraise of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha, the Commentary says, means speaking in terms contradictory to those used in the standard chant of praise to the Triple Gem—asserting, for instance, that the Buddha’s Dhamma is poorly taught, or that his disciples practice crookedly. An offender in this case should be reprimanded. If he sees the error of his ways, he should be punished with an appropriate prohibition and then given the training rules again. If he doesn’t, he should be expelled. The same holds for a novice espousing wrong views—which, according to the Commentary, means espousing either the extreme of eternalism or the extreme of annihilationism.

“Expulsion

“I allow a novice endowed with ten qualities to be expelled: He is a taker of life, he is a taker of what is not given, he engages in unchastity, he is a speaker of lies, he is a drinker of intoxicants, he speaks dispraise of the Buddha, he speaks dispraise of the Dhamma, he speaks dispraise of the Saṅgha, he holds wrong views, he is a molester of a bhikkhunī. I allow that a novice endowed with these ten qualities be expelled.”—Mv.I.60”

Excerpt From: Thanissaro Bhikkhu. “The Buddhist Monastic Code, Volumes I & II”. Apple Books.

Advice to auto: renounce the wrong view that self exist, or that Buddha taught that self exist. You can happily admit that you don't see it personally yet, but at least intellectually admit that Buddha taught no self doctrine and it's meant to be understood for enlightenment to happen.
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DooDoot
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:44 am “Expulsion

he holds wrong views, or
he is a molester of a bhikkhunī.

Dispraise of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha, the Commentary says, means speaking in terms contradictory to those used in the standard chant of praise to the Triple Gem—
But I recall i already censured you about the above. I recall asking u many times about the Dhamma standard chant but i recall you never answered.
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:44 amThe same holds for a novice espousing wrong views—which, according to the Commentary, means espousing either the extreme of eternalism or the extreme of annihilationism.
Monks such as Thanissaro themselves have wrong views about eternalism & annihilationism. For example, Thanissaro published the following, which is wrong view:
"Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by JamesTheGiant »

I can also confirm what Venerable DiamondNgXZ says; the wrong views of a novice are taken seriously, and they must accept correction before full ordination.

But of course, someone with those views could ordain at a bad monastery which believes in wrong view, or a bad monastery which just doesn't care about teaching the novices
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:14 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:44 am “Expulsion

he holds wrong views, or
he is a molester of a bhikkhunī.

Dispraise of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Saṅgha, the Commentary says, means speaking in terms contradictory to those used in the standard chant of praise to the Triple Gem—
But I recall i already censured you about the above. I recall asking u many times about the Dhamma standard chant but i recall you never answered.

Part of why I ignored you is that I perceive you as either

1. Have wrong views and cannot be talked out of it,

2. Likes to twist and turn dhamma to just win arguments, have no firm stance on your own,

3. Do not truly wish to teach the others here, merely joining this forum for fun of spreading wrong view, debate, spreading disruption.

Thus not worth investing time in engaging. Have a nice day!
Last edited by DiamondNgXZ on Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:27 am I can also confirm what Venerable DiamondNgXZ says; the wrong views of a novice are taken seriously, and they must accept correction before full ordination.

But of course, someone with those views could ordain at a bad monastery which believes in wrong view, or a bad monastery which just doesn't care about teaching the novices
:goodpost:
un8-
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by un8- »

Expulsion for wrong views is vague. Does it mention what type of wrong views? I can see expulsion for the wrong view of not accepting the precepts, that killing is ok, but what about something subtle?

As doodoot implied there are famous monks with wrong views, so we are already passed the point of preventing wrong views from moving onto the next generation.

I think every tradition and monestary has their own view, so yeah, you can't go against the grain in general if you join a community.

maybe auto should find a monestary where a person he likes there has similar views.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

un8- wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:39 am As doodoot implied there are famous monks with wrong views, so we are already passed the point of preventing wrong views from moving onto the next generation.
That is his misrepresentation of those monks. This is an individual on a forum who claims the Buddha did not teach rebirth, claiming that highly regarded monastics have 'wrong views'.
You can see the contradiction.

It is may be possible to perceive some monks as holding controversial views, but the role of the Sangha is to hold each other accountable also for their interpretation of the teachings.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:26 am Part of why I ignored you is that I perceive you as either

1. Have wrong views and cannot be talked out of it,
Sorry but my views are right view. The impression is the question is not answered because of a refusal to acknowledge the True Dhamma is visible here & now.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by cappuccino »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 am you don’t believe in no self.
On Self, No Self, and Not-self

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

Then … Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question … ?"

If I — being asked … if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.

Ananda Sutta
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by Ontheway »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:43 pm
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 am you don’t believe in no self.
On Self, No Self, and Not-self

"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

Then … Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Why, lord, did the Blessed One not answer when asked a question … ?"

If I — being asked … if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.

Ananda Sutta
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This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my Self.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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auto
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Re: telling parents about renunciation

Post by auto »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:13 am
auto wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:47 pm Finally brave enough to start tell about renunciation openly, telling them like they are not my friend anymore.
Do let your teachers who would ordain you know that you don't believe in no self. They wouldn't be able to ordain you unless you intellectually accept no self.

Edit: Sorry, not grounds for not ordaining you, but as a novice, it's ground for expulsion, see below.
The feeling of self leads you to the same space experimentally(personally attaining) what appears as emptiness(no self) to those who think about abandoning sensual pleasures for life.
Attachment to both of these views are gotten rid of when have seen arising and passing away of the world - you have to go through these faster than one kappa.
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