What is mindfulness of death?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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mjaviem
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by mjaviem »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:46 pm It can be whatever you want, baby.

Practice either and see what works.
No, mindfulness of death is defined here:
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:13 pm AN 6.19 and 6.20 give the Buddha's detailed instruction on this:
https://suttacentral.net/an6.19/en/sujato

https://suttacentral.net/an6.20/en/sujato
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Mr. Seek
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by Mr. Seek »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:25 pm
Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:46 pm It can be whatever you want, baby.

Practice either and see what works.
No, mindfulness of death is defined here:
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:13 pm AN 6.19 and 6.20 give the Buddha's detailed instruction on this:
https://suttacentral.net/an6.19/en/sujato

https://suttacentral.net/an6.20/en/sujato
OK, that's true.
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SDC
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by SDC »

mjaviem wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:22 pm Yeah but you can be aware that death is close and not give rise to the desire to practise.
Absolutely.

In other suttas there is the description of perception of death, which is something that needs to be developed. In other words, if the perception is undeveloped it might not be impactful or meaningful enough to to generate the urgency and dispassion. The perception needs to literally grow so it can be strong enough to always be recollected. Otherwise it will just sit there like a neglected plant in a garden.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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mjaviem
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

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SDC wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:53 pm In other suttas there is the description of perception of death, which is something that needs to be developed. In other words, if the perception is undeveloped it might not be impactful or meaningful enough to to generate the urgency and dispassion. The perception needs to literally grow so it can be strong enough to always be recollected. Otherwise it will just sit there like a neglected plant in a garden.
Could you (one day) quote one of those suttas? Because in AN6.19 the Buddha instructs to "train like this: ‘... We will keenly develop mindfulness of death for the ending of defilements.’ That’s how you should train.”. I wonder if this "development of mindfulness of death" instructed here, which I understand as the wish to practise now and not later, is the same as the "development of the perception of death" you are referring. You are talking about urgency and I'm talking about being diligent.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by un8- »

It is Seeing the drawbacks (Impermanence) of all conditioned things, and in the context of human life that is the separation of the aggregates.

It is different than knowing you're going to die, and more along the lines that you will lose everything you care about.

You can die before you die, just give up everything. Whatever it is you enjoy, give it up, that is dying before you die. Think about what death is like, or even the week leading up to it, if you are conscious.

No access to sports and your usual entertainment, no access to foods you like, constant discomfort, you will lose access to your kids and spouse. Usually getting prodded by needles and cold nurse or doctor's hands. Constant beeping from a heart monitor, and crappy hospital food. Indoors with flourescent lights and gray ceiling tiles, no more beautiful trips to beautiful areas, maybe someone will take you in your wheelchair around the hospital block for some fresh air.

Maybe you'll feel relieved, no more taxes and bills either, no more stress, no more diseases, that is unless you're reborn of course. But if you have someone you love, the pain of losing them will probably outweigh everything else.

Finally, the senses fade out, similar to jhanas, except this time along with the senses, also awareness and consciousness fade out too, the ability to know and discern as well, not unlike being given anesthesia. You have your last breath and your last thought, if you're lucky hopefully this will be the last time you have to deal with this experience, if you're unlucky and unwise, you'll be back again.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

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Damn un8 giving me the chills right there with them posts
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SDC
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

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mjaviem wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:27 pm
SDC wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:53 pm In other suttas there is the description of perception of death, which is something that needs to be developed. In other words, if the perception is undeveloped it might not be impactful or meaningful enough to to generate the urgency and dispassion. The perception needs to literally grow so it can be strong enough to always be recollected. Otherwise it will just sit there like a neglected plant in a garden.
Could you (one day) quote one of those suttas? Because in AN6.19 the Buddha instructs to "train like this: ‘... We will keenly develop mindfulness of death for the ending of defilements.’ That’s how you should train.”. I wonder if this "development of mindfulness of death" instructed here, which I understand as the wish to practise now and not later, is the same as the "development of the perception of death" you are referring. You are talking about urgency and I'm talking about being diligent.
I think diligence and urgency go hand in hand; AN 6.19 mentions diligence directly, and AN 6.20 deals more with urgency. And here is a great bit about perception of death from AN 7.49:
…The perception of death, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end’: Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said?

“When a monk’s awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind shrinks away from fervor for life, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. Just as a cock’s feather or a piece of tendon, when thrown into a fire, shrinks away, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in; in the same way, when a monk’s awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind shrinks away from fervor for life, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance. If, when a monk’s awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind inclines to fervor for life, or if non-loathing takes a stance, then he should realize, ‘I have not developed the perception of death; there is no step-by-step distinction in me; I have not arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.’ In that way he is alert there. But if, when a monk’s awareness often remains steeped in the perception of death, his mind shrinks away from fervor for life, bends away, pulls back, and is not drawn in, and either equanimity or loathing take a stance, then he should realize, ‘I have developed the perception of death; there is a step-by-step distinction in me; I have arrived at the fruit of [mental] development.’ In that way he is alert there.
It seems to me that mindfulness of death is the recollection of this perception; literally remembering it and developing it. It is very interesting that the result is either equanimity or loathing that are established; a good reminder that this knowledge can be difficult to bear.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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bodom
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by bodom »

Some contemplations from the suttas:
(7) CONTEMPLATION OF DEATH (maranusati)

In Vism VIII,4 it is said: One who wishes to develop this exercise should go into solitude, and while in seclusion he should consider deeply: “Death will come; the life faculty will come to an end”: or: “I am destined to die! I am des-tined to die!” To him, in fact, who does not undertake this consideration in the right way, there may arise grief, when thinking for example about the death of a beloved person, just as in the case of a mother when thinking on the death of her child. And when considering the death of a person regarded with dislike, joy may spring up, just as in the case of enemies thinking on the death of their enemies; yet, when thinking on the death of a person regarded with indifference, no emotion will be aroused, just as in the case of a cremator of dead bodies while looking at a dead body. While think-ing on one’s own death, however, horror may arise, just as in one who sees a murderer with drawn sword standing before him. But when seeing here and there bodies of the slain or other dead beings, one may reflect on the death of such beings who once had lived in happiness, and one may incite one’s mindfulness, emotions, and wisdom and consider thus: “Death will come.” Only in one who practises the contemplation on death in this way will mindfulness be-come firmly established, and the mental exercise will reach neighbourhood concentration (upacara-samadhi).

According to Vism VIII,8, one may also contemplate on death in the following way: One may consider death like a murderer with a drawn sword standing in front of one; or one may consider that all happiness ends in death; or that even the mightiest beings in the world cannot escape death; or that this body must be shared by us with innumerable worms and other beings living in it; or that life is something depending on in-and-out breathing; or that life functions only as long as the elements, food, and breath are functioning properly; or that nobody knows when, where, and through what one will die; or what kind of destiny awaits us after death; or that life is very short and limited.
AN 8:74

Contemplation on death, O monks, developed and frequently practised, brings high reward and blessing, has the Deathless as goal and end. And how so?

As soon, O monks, as the day draws to a close, or when the night vanishes and the day breaks, the monk thinks to himself: “Truly, there are many possibilities of dying: a serpent may bite me, or a scorpion or centipede may sting me, and thereby I may lose my life. But this would be for me an obstruction. Or I may stumble and fall down; or the food taken by me may disagree with me. Bile, phlegm, or pricking gases may become stirred up. Men or evil spirits may attack me, and thereby I may lose my life. But that would be for me an obstruction.” Here, the monk has to consider: “Are there still found in me unsubdued evil and unwholesome states which, if I should die today or tonight, would lead me to misfortune (in the next life)?”

Now, if the monk in his reflections notices that there are still unsubdued evil and unwholesome states found in him, then he should use his utmost determination, energy, exertion, perseverance, stead-fastness, mindfulness, and clear comprehension in order to subdue these evil and unwholesome states.

If, however, the monk in his reflections notices that there are no more found in him any evil and unwholesome states which, if he should die, would lead him to misfortune, then this monk should dwell in blissful joy, training himself in all good things by day and by night.
AN 7:46

If, O monks, a monk often entertains the thought of death, his mind will shrink from attachment to life, will turn away from it, get detached from it, will not feel drawn to it, and equanimity or disgust will make their appearance.

Just as, O monks, a cock’s feather or a piece of bowstring, thrown into the fire, shrinks, twists, rolls itself up, no more stretches itself out: just so the mind shrinks back from attachment to life, turns away from it, gets detached from it, does not feel drawn to it, and equanimity or disgust make their appearance.

If, however, the monk, though he often entertains the idea of death, still has attachment to life, and no disgust makes its appearance, then the monk should know that he has not developed the idea of death, and that he has not reached successive stages of distinction, and that he has not reached the full strength of that meditation. In this way he has a clear comprehension of it.

If, however, in a monk, who often entertains the idea of death, his mind shrinks from attachment to life, turns away from it, gets detached from it, does not feel drawn to it, and equanimity or disgust make their appearance, then this monk should know that he has developed the idea of death, and that he has reached successive stages of distinction, and that he has reached the full strength of that meditation. In this way he has a clear comprehension of it.
SN 4:10

The days and nights are flying past, Life dwindles hurriedly away:
The life of mortals vanishes Like water in a tiny stream.
AN 7:70

Short, alas, is the life of man, limited and fleeting, full of pain and torment. One should wisely under-stand this, do good deeds, and lead a holy life; for no mortal ever escapes death.

Just as the dewdrop at the point of the grass blade at sunrise very soon vanishes and does not remain for long: just so is the life of humans like a dewdrop, very short and fl eeting.Or, just as at the pouring down of a mighty rain-cloud the bubbles on the water very soon vanish and do not remain for long: just so is the bubble-like life of humans very short and fleeting.

Or, just as a furrow drawn with a stick in the water very soon vanishes and does not remain for long: just so is the furrow-like life of humans very short and fleeting.

Or, just as a strong man forms a ball of spittle with the tip of his tongue and without any effort spits it out: just so is the life of humans like a ball of spittle, very short and fleeting.

Or, just as if one throws a lump of meat into a metal pot heated for a full day, the meat at once dissolves and does not remain for long: just so is the life of hu-mans like a lump of meat, very short and fleeting.

Or, just as cattle for slaughter, whatever foot they lift, ever stand on the brink of death: just so is the life of hu-mans like cattle for slaughter, very short and fleeting.

One should wisely understand this, do good deeds, and lead a holy life; for no mortal ever es-capes death.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

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Continued:
Snp 576

As in the morning one may fear The falling of the ripened fruits, So all mortals in this world Live in constant fear of death.
SN 3:22

All beings are subject to death, end in death, can never escape death.

As every earthen pot that has Been fashioned by the potter’s hand, No matter whether small or great, Will fall to pieces in the end:

Just so are all beings subject to death, end in death, can never escape death.

All beings some time have to die, Their life one day will end in death, And they will fare after their deeds, And good or bad fruits they will earn.

The evil-doer fares to hell, The good man to a happy world.
Hence, noble deeds you should perform As a provision for the next life, For good deeds in the next world give To living beings a strong support.
SN 35:36

All things, O monks, are subject to death. And which are these?
The eye is subject to death, visible forms are subject to death, visual consciousness is subject to death, visual impression is subject to death, and also feeling conditioned through visual impressions—agreeable, disagreeable, and indifferent feeling—this too is subject to death.The ear, sounds, and auditory consciousness….

The nose, odours, and olfactory consciousness….
The tongue, taste, and gustatory consciousness…. The body, bodily impressions, and body-consciousness….
The mind, mind-objects, and mind-consciousness, mental impression, and also the feeling conditioned through mental impression—agreeable, disagreeable, and indifferent—feeling, this too is subject to death.

Comprehending thus, the noble disciple turns away from the eye, visible forms, visual consciousness; from the ear … nose … tongue … body … mind, mind-objects, mind-consciousness, mental impression, and the feeling conditioned through mental impression.

Turning away from these, he becomes detached;
through detachment he becomes liberated; and in the Liberated One the knowledge arises: “Liberated am I”; and he understands: “Rebirth has ceased, the holy life is fulfilled, the task is done, and nothing further remains after this.”
SN 3:25

Just as the mighty rocky mounts Are stretching high up to the sky, Traversing all the land around, And weighing heavily on it;

Just so old age and death suppress All living beings in this world, The warriors, brahmans, traders, slaves, The sweepers and the outcasts, too, Not sparing anything whatever, And crushing all that they can find.
Dhp 41

Alas, this mortal body soon Will lie prostrate upon the ground, Cast off, a thing lifeless and dead, Just like a useless wooden log.
Dhp 46

If you have understood this body as foam, Have known it as illusion, as mirage, Then Mara’s flower-arrows you will break, And by the Lord of Death no more be found.
Dhp 47

Whose mind, like one who gathers flowers, Does firmly cling to lovely things, Him death will surely carry off, Just as the flood the sleeping town.
Here may be added a significant passage from Vism VIII,1:

“In the ultimate sense, beings have only a very short moment to live, only as long as one single moment of consciousness lasts. Just as the cart wheel, in rolling forward as in standing still, every time rests merely on one point of its circumference: just so the life of a being lasts only as long as one single moment of consciousness lasts. As soon as this moment is extinguished, the being is considered as extinguished. For it is said:

All life and all existence here, With all its joy and all its pain, Depends all on one state of mind, And quick that moment passes by.
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by form »

To enforce a sense of urgency to relinquish.
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

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Anapana.
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mjaviem
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:07 pm ...
It seems to me that mindfulness of death is the recollection of this perception; literally remembering it and developing it. It is very interesting that the result is either equanimity or loathing that are established; a good reminder that this knowledge can be difficult to bear.
Thanks to yours and Bodom's quotes and this thread I am more of the idea that to develop mindfulness of death (maraṇassati) is more about wishing to practise without delay while there's still time. Developing the perception of death (maraṇasaññā) is more about getting disenchanted with life. Both have in common that death is in mind and both eventually lead to the same result but don't seem to be the same.

Perception of death seems to be more about wisdom and seeing life properly. Mindfulness of death seems to be more about desiring to practise and remembering one can die. You remember you could die and at the same time you want and remember to practise. This is not the same as to see with wisdom that there is death and that life won't give us our highest aspirations. That you want to practise carefully and hastily because you are mindful of death is not the same as you are disappointed because you have perceived death and don't want to cling anymore, enough of all this for you because of this perception.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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SDC
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

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mjaviem wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:44 am
:thumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by Ontheway »

I find this thread informative. I've exploring Maranasati... I think I need that to suppress my distracted mind and induce urgency to practice more...
“Monks, these days it would be right to say: ‘Life as a human is short, brief, and goes by quickly, full of pain and suffering. Think about this and wake up! Do what’s good and live the spiritual life, for no-one born can escape death.’ Because, monks, these days a long life is a hundred years or a little more. Living for 100 years, there are just 300 seasons, a hundred each of the winter, summer, and rains. Living for 300 seasons, there are just 1,200 months, 400 in each of the winter, summer, and rains. Living for 1,200 months, there are just 2,400 half-months, eight hundred in each of the winter, summer, and rains. Living for 2,400 half-months, there are just 36,000 days, 12,000 in each of the summer, winter, and rains. Living for 36,000 days, you just eat 72,000 meals, 24,000 in each of the summer, winter, and rains, including when you’re sucking milk at your mother’s breast, and when you’re kept from eating.

“Things that keep you from eating include anger, pain, sickness, observing the fast,1 or being unable to get food. So monks, for a human being with a hundred years life span I have counted the life span, the limit of the life span, the seasons, the years, the months, the half-months, the nights, the days, the meals, and the things that keep one from eating. Out of compassion, I’ve done what a Compassionate One should do for the benefit of his disciples. Monks, here are these roots of trees, and here are these empty huts. Practice meditation, monks! Don’t be negligent! Don’t regret it later! This is my instruction to you.”
https://suttafriends.org/sutta/an7-74/
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: What is mindfulness of death?

Post by form »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:13 pm AN 6.19 and 6.20 give the Buddha's detailed instruction on this:
https://suttacentral.net/an6.19/en/sujato

https://suttacentral.net/an6.20/en/sujato
:goodpost:
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