Iti 63

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:37 pm ...
I don't know what you mean by "trapped" by, but I was simply pointing out that if we take one of the aggregates such as vedanā we can say that he did still experience it. For example, he still experienced pain. That has nothing to do with the Abhidhamma. It's there in the suttas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Iti 63

Post by mjaviem »

SDC wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:01 pm ...
:goodpost:

When we hear about past or future, since we don't understand, we suffer: Past is gone and a loss for us, future can certainly bring bad things to us. But if we could only understand... If we could understand we would be free of all suffering, so peaceful, so sublime.

Wish you all get as close as possible to liberation from this overwhelming bondage of misconceiving things, we misconceive almost everything. Good luck in this endeavor, keep you all trying as much as possible and don't ever doubt it is possible in this very lifetime, in this very present moment.
:anjali:
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Coëmgenu »

The idea that the Buddha is "beyond the aggregates" in such a way that he has non-aggregate being and that he actually has no aggregates, neither ultimately nor conventionally, is actually AFAIK a Mahāsāṁghika idea that gets taken up in Mahāyāna. The dominant Sthaviravādin model, once again AFAIK, is that the Buddha struggled with the burden of the aggregates, despite Nirvāṇa, until Parinirvāṇa, at which point they ceased, including his consciousness/mind. To quote Sage Zhào:
Of all forms of disease, none is greater than that of having a body — he extinguished the body. Of all forms of torment, none is more severe than that of having a calculating mind — he erased it and submerged in the vacuous. The mind is taxed by the body; the body is burdened by the intellect. The two pull each other, turning like a wheel on the endless road of misery. It is said in a sutra, “The intellect is poison, the body is shackles. Because of them the abysmal silence of liberation remains beyond reach; they are the cause of all tribulations.” The Perfect turned his body into ashes and extinguished his intellect, he relinquished his form and discarded his reason. Within, he abandoned the stirrings of illumination; without, he put to rest the basis of misery. Transcendent, perfectly free from all existents; boundless, he became great and vacuous. Tranquil, inaudible, clear, non-manifest, mysteriously gone forever into a destination unknown. When a lamp goes out its flame is extinguished, the oil and the flame gone all at once. This is nirvana without remainder. In the words of a sutra, “The five aggregates are no more, like a flame extinguished.”

This being so, nirvana with remainder can indeed be called “the nameable,” while nirvana without remainder may be called “the nameless.” With non-nameability asserted, partisans of emptiness will be gratified to find sanction for their belief that in the all-pervading silence; with nameability affirmed, those concerned about virtue and morals will have the Sage's actions to look up to as their model. Such are the teachings imparted to us in the authoritative scriptures, the tracks laid down by the sages of old.

“Considered from within, neither is it existent nor nonexistent; viewed from without, language fails to approach it. Seeing and hearing do not reach it, the four kinds of formlessness obscure it even further.”

When lovers of virtue hear this doctrine they will despair; when proponents of emptiness hear it they will be left without a refuge. It describes a state no different from that of someone who, even though his eyes and ears are as obtuse as when he was still in the womb, and for whom the heavenly bodies are obscured beyond the most distant clouds, nevertheless attempts to pronounce on fine distinctions in musical notation and to discuss the diverse appearances of the astral phenomena. He knows only to banish the Perfect outside of being and nonbeing, to sing lofty praises of what is beyond forms and names. Yet all the while his words lead nowhere and block the recondite path, instead of revealing it. Though he ponders on them intently, they do not bring him peace. Are they really the light in the dark chamber, the wondrous sound that restores hearing to the deaf?

The terms “with remainder” and “without remainder” are only external appellations for nirvana, conventional designations for the divergent modes of the sages’ responding to things. Those who cling to concepts will be bound by concepts; those who are attached to forms and images will be constrained by forms and images. Names reach no further than the definable; forms stop at the square and the round. But there are things that “square” and “round” cannot capture, and things that concepts cannot convey. How could names express the unnameable, how could forms truly capture the formless?
(Sēng Zhào 肇論 Zhào's Essays, BDK translation)

The "Theravādin view" is that the Buddha must wait for the exhaustion of his "residue" to then exhaust that body and mind. As Ven Zhào states, summarizing his understanding of the Śrāvaka view, the "disease" and "torment" must end via Parinirvāṇa.
“There are, mendicants, these two facets of quenching. What two? The facet of quenching with something left over, and the facet of quenching with nothing left over.

And what is the facet of quenching with something left over? It’s when a mendicant is a perfected one, with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own true goal, utterly ended the fetters of rebirth, and is rightly freed through enlightenment. Their five sense faculties still remain. So long as their senses have not gone they continue to experience the agreeable and disagreeable, to feel pleasure and pain. The ending of greed, hate, and delusion in them is called the facet of quenching with something left over.
(Nibbānadhātusutta Iti 44, Ven Sujāto translation)
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Mr. Seek
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Mr. Seek »

How then, Coëmgenu, would you explain the last 2-3 verses of Snp 4.11, where the entire doctrine of with and without residue, realization here-and-now or at death, is refuted?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Coëmgenu »

Can you post the section? It's certainly possible that something in the suttas complicates the narrative of "the disease and torment must end via Parinirvāṇa." I could look it up myself, but then others might not know what we are talking about.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:16 pm The idea that the Buddha is "beyond the aggregates" in such a way that he has non-aggregate being and that he actually has no aggregates, neither ultimately nor conventionally, is actually AFAIK a Mahāsāṁghika idea that gets taken up in Mahāyāna.
Yes it is.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Mr. Seek »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:25 pm Can you post the section? It's certainly possible that something in the suttas complicates the narrative of "the disease and torment must end via Parinirvāṇa." I could look it up myself, but then others might not know what we are talking about.
That would be troublesome because I'm on my phone and all translations on said verses are different. I'd suggest researching it, is interesting. Lol wait I know the verses by heart I'll just put em in writing.

Do some of the wise say that just this much is the utmost, that purity of spirit is here in the world, or do they say that it's other than this?

Some of the wise say that just this much is the utmost, that purity of spirit is here in the world. But some of them, who say they are skilled, say it's the moment with no clinging (to material substrata) remaining.

But knowing: "having know, they still are dependent", the sage ponders dependencies; on knowing them, released, he doesn't get into disputes, doesn't meet with becoming and not.


Fingers hurt
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Coëmgenu »

Once you're off your phone, I think it would be interesting if you explained to me/the forum how you are reading that section of verse, particularly the ending of that section, "Knowing, 'Having known, they still are dependent,' the sage, ponders dependencies. On knowing them, released, he doesn't get into disputes, doesn't meet with becoming & not-: he's enlightened."

The formatting is strange. I'm not used to seeing dashes and colons next to each other or colons starting lines of poetry. Either way, what is "they" and "them" to you in the section I have italicized and bolded?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:10 pm What are your thoughts on this sutta?
“Bhikkhus, these are the three times. What three? Past time, future time, and present time. These, bhikkhus, are the three times.”

Perceiving what can be expressed through concepts,
Beings take their stand on what is expressed.
Not fully understanding the expressed,
They come under the bondage of Death.

But by fully understanding what is expressed
One does not misconceive the speaker.
His mind has attained to freedom,
The unsurpassed state of peace.

Understanding what is expressed,
The peaceful one delights in the peaceful state.
Standing on Dhamma, perfect in knowledge,
He freely makes use of concepts
But no more enters into concept’s range."
https://suttacentral.net/iti63/en/ireland

What does it mean? It seems to have a parallel in Ven. Asaṅga's Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra, but I can't translate the sanskrit.
It depends if "what can be expressed through concepts" refers to "all concepts" or refers to the enumeration of the three times that immediately precedes it. If the concepts specifically referred to are the three times, then there are two ways to take it that immediately come to mind.

1) The "he" who freely makes use of concepts (i.e. "the three times," or something else) uses them but understands that they have no reality,

or 2) The "he" who freely makes use of concepts (i.e. "the three times," or something else) "no more enters into concept's range" because he understands and/or perceives the underlying reality behind the concepts and they are no longer "mere concepts" to him.

The issue is what it means to "fully understand what is expressed."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Pulsar
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
I don't know what you mean by "trapped" by
Trapped? also can mean
  • captured, cornered or ambushed.
We are ambushed by our feelings. Do you think Buddha was?
At this point I don't want to be distracted by any abhidhamma, neither Mahayana nor Theravada. Thank you Coemgenu for trying to help. In my earlier comment, I noted that I will only rely on suttas on the doctrine of Dependent Origination to pursue this discussion. Retro's thread on abhidhamma vs suttas taught me not to rely on any Abhidhamma, because it seems they do not stick to Buddha's teaching consistently.
So dear Celsiwer: let me ask you a counter question.
SN 35.28 writes
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?
"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.
"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...
"The nose is burning, odors are burning...
"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...
"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning,
or feeling is burning.
From this sutta I learn that
  • aggregates of the unenlightened are constantly burning.
Do you think Buddha (completely cooled or nibbanized) was burning with the fire of aggregates?

I wish to carry on this discussion without any input from any abhidhamma.
So as OP of this thread if you wish to drag in abhidhamma, I bow out. You can continue the
conversation with Coemgenu, since he appears to be an expert on Mahayana abhidhamma, and I am not. Unlike Coemgenu I have a substantial understanding of Pali nikaya, which the forum might find helpful or not?
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:33 pm
So dear Celsiwer: let me ask you a counter question.
SN 35.28 writes
"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?
"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.
"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...
"The nose is burning, odors are burning...
"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...
"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning, ideas are burning, mind-consciousness is burning, mind-contact is burning,
or feeling is burning.
From this sutta I learn that
  • aggregates of the unenlightened are constantly burning.
Do you think Buddha (completely cooled or nibbanized) was burning with the fire of aggregates?
The focus there seems to be on lust etc in relation to sense experience. Did the Buddha still experience pain or not, in your view? Did he experience vedanā & sañña at all?

Unlike Coemgenu I have a substantial understanding of Pali nikaya, which the forum might find helpful or not?
With love :candle:
Reading a lot and understanding are two different things.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:00 pm
It depends if "what can be expressed through concepts" refers to "all concepts" or refers to the enumeration of the three times that immediately precedes it. If the concepts specifically referred to are the three times, then there are two ways to take it that immediately come to mind.

1) The "he" who freely makes use of concepts (i.e. "the three times," or something else) uses them but understands that they have no reality,

or 2) The "he" who freely makes use of concepts (i.e. "the three times," or something else) "no more enters into concept's range" because he understands and/or perceives the underlying reality behind the concepts and they are no longer "mere concepts" to him.

The issue is what it means to "fully understand what is expressed."
If the prose isn't in the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra, then I would say it applies to all concepts. The last two obviously brings us to if there are sabhāva-dhammas or not. Did the Buddha thing in terms of sabhāva? Unlikely. Did he think then the aggregates and six senses were "real", or worldly concepts?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Coëmgenu »

Why are the three times outlined at the beginning then?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:51 pm Why are the three times outlined at the beginning then?
Well it's possible that the verse is the original core and the prose was added, later much like with the Udāna. Who can say why? Perhaps to do with the doctrinal split between what would become Theravāda and the Sarvāstivādins and Pudgalavādins?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Coëmgenu »

I guess maybe. Are you suggesting that the three times qualifier was added to the Pāli version as a way to polemicize against Sarvāstivādin tri-temporality? I don't totally get what you mean here.

The Pāli parallel is interesting:
“Sentient beings who perceive the communicable,
become established in the communicable.
Not understanding the communicable,
they fall under the yoke of Death.

But having fully understood the communicable,
they don’t identify as a communicator,
for they have nothing
by which they might be described.
Tell me if you understand, spirit.”

[...]

“If you think that ‘I’m equal,
special, or worse’, you’ll get into arguments.
Unwavering in the face of the three discriminations,
you’ll have no thought ‘I’m equal or special’.
Tell me if you understand, spirit.”

[...]

“Judging is given up, conceit rejected;
craving for name and form is cut off right here.
They’ve cut the ties, untroubled, with no need for hope.
Though gods and humans search for them
in this world and the world beyond, they never find them,
not in heaven nor in any abode.
(Samiddhisutta SN 1.20)
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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