Iti 63

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Ceisiwr
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Iti 63

Post by Ceisiwr »

What are your thoughts on this sutta?
“Bhikkhus, these are the three times. What three? Past time, future time, and present time. These, bhikkhus, are the three times.”

Perceiving what can be expressed through concepts,
Beings take their stand on what is expressed.
Not fully understanding the expressed,
They come under the bondage of Death.

But by fully understanding what is expressed
One does not misconceive the speaker.
His mind has attained to freedom,
The unsurpassed state of peace.

Understanding what is expressed,
The peaceful one delights in the peaceful state.
Standing on Dhamma, perfect in knowledge,
He freely makes use of concepts
But no more enters into concept’s range."
https://suttacentral.net/iti63/en/ireland

What does it mean? It seems to have a parallel in Ven. Asaṅga's Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstra, but I can't translate the sanskrit.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Iti 63

Post by SDC »

Go grab a few grains of salt…

Seems to be saying that time is a designation; a manner of describing an experience that is already there regardless of what that temporal designation is identifying. Without a manifestation to call past, present or future, time is meaningless. Now science would have us believing in an even broader notion of time below this idea of designation, but that too is a designation indicative of nothing more than an extra background associated with whatever else has simply manifested. And you can just keep pushing these layers infinitely, but all that implies is an attempt to justify something that is never actually below the experience.

“Standing” upon these layers - whether it be two or a dozen (depending on how many you can hold in memory) - literally has you living in that structure, and dying there if you aren’t able to flip it over, and see that it isn’t that time is further and further below or outside, but that it is the nature of manifestation (coupled with wrong view) to grow outward and stand. Once those notions of outside and below are seen rightly as something literally growing, and secondary to the body, they cease to be the fabric within which “you live” and are left sitting there, just known as imagery.

In short, “time” is an orientation, and is a result of things that are already there. It sits upon them, things do not sit within it. Same with Self.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
un8-
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Re: Iti 63

Post by un8- »

Perceiving what can be expressed through concepts,
Beings take their stand on what is expressed.
Not fully understanding the expressed,
They come under the bondage of Death.
I take this to mean that people take something as real that is not real but merely a concept. Take for example the moon, we all agree it exists because that is the consensus and we have photos and objective data, but actually the moon cannot be known, all that can be known is a circle in the sky that glows at night.

Now we can apply this to time, time is also something that cannot be known. If you put someone in a room with no windows, all they will actually know is "I'm tired", they won't know time directly. So we take a lot of "truths" for granted.

Now apply that to suffering, we take for granted that sensual desires stop suffering, we repeat the same band aid solution over and over, but it never solves the problem.
But by fully understanding what is expressed
One does not misconceive the speaker.
His mind has attained to freedom,
The unsurpassed state of peace.

Understanding what is expressed,
The peaceful one delights in the peaceful state.
Standing on Dhamma, perfect in knowledge,
He freely makes use of concepts
But no more enters into concept’s range."
For one with right view, concepts are irrelevant. All that matters is what is experienced and how to deal with it. No longer being invested in what the mind creates and what the senses feel, habituation slowly comes to an end like a ball running out of momentum. It comes to a rest, as there is nothing fueling it anymore. Being disassociated from the aggregates also stops the cycle that maintains the aggregates, so one is rested.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: Iti 63

Post by SteRo »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:10 pm What are your thoughts on this sutta?
“Bhikkhus, these are the three times. What three? Past time, future time, and present time. These, bhikkhus, are the three times.”

Perceiving what can be expressed through concepts,
Beings take their stand on what is expressed.
Not fully understanding the expressed,
They come under the bondage of Death.

But by fully understanding what is expressed
One does not misconceive the speaker.
His mind has attained to freedom,
The unsurpassed state of peace.

Understanding what is expressed,
The peaceful one delights in the peaceful state.
Standing on Dhamma, perfect in knowledge,
He freely makes use of concepts
But no more enters into concept’s range."
https://suttacentral.net/iti63/en/ireland

What does it mean?
Pretty clear and cannot be paraphrased without changing the original meaning.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
pegembara
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Re: Iti 63

Post by pegembara »

Discussion pertinent to the verses.

viewtopic.php?t=35944
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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robertk
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Re: Iti 63

Post by robertk »

All that there is is concepts and realities – understand that and life becomes less confusing. And understanding becomes a refuge , in the sense that what is pain, or disappointment, or fear – all those elements we all try to avoid- other than fleeting specters. I feel if we know this we aren’t moved as much by them as before. And more importantly life is - to the extent that the difference between concepts and realities is understood - life is understood.

So concepts give the appearance of lasting for some time. But they are merely concepts. Realities are different - they vanish instantly.

Then there is no problem with concepts and using terms - but no belief that they are real.

Sujin Boriharnwanaket(speaking last week):
That's why the understanding of no one can get away from dhamma here, it's there all the time, unknown as dhamma. Thinking that we live in the world, in different ways, streets, houses, things around, but actually it's only a moment of experiencing an object by conditions. So listen more to the truth of each reality, just in order to have more confidence of: no one no thing no I no self, that's all. Otherwise what's the use of just listening more, hearing more and clinging more to what 'I' have learned, as I.


.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Here is what I found:
  • Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:At first glance, the verses here do not bear much relationship to the prose introduction. However, if they are viewed in the context of MN 2 (see the note ### to §16), their relationship becomes clear: the person who applies appropriate attention to the notion of past, present, and future time does not define him or herself in those terms, and so does not cling to any sense of self in those terms. Without clinging, one is liberated from birth and death.
    https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... #fnt-063.1
  • ###
    Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:Appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) is the ability to focus attention on questions that lead to the end of suffering. MN 2 lists the following questions as not fit for attention: "Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past?... Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future?... Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?" The discourse also lists the following issues as fit for attention: "This is stress. This is the origination of stress. This is the cessation of stress. This is the way leading to the cessation of stress."
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

This is commentary:

  • Addhāsuttavaṇṇanā

    63. Catutthe addhāti kālā. Atīto addhātiādīsu dve pariyāyā – suttantapariyāyo, abhidhammapariyāyo ca. Tattha suttantapariyāyena paṭisandhito pubbe atīto addhā nāma, cutito pacchā anāgato addhā nāma, saha cutipaṭisandhīhi tadanantaraṃ paccuppanno addhā nāma. Abhidhammapariyāyena uppādo, ṭhiti, bhaṅgoti ime tayo khaṇe patvā niruddhadhammā atīto addhā nāma, tayopi khaṇe asampattā anāgato addhā nāma, khaṇattayasamaṅgino paccuppanno addhā nāma.

    Aparo nayo – ayañhi atītādivibhāgo addhāsantatisamayakhaṇavasena catudhā veditabbo. Tesu addhāvibhāgo vutto. Santativasena sabhāgā ekautusamuṭṭhānā, ekāhārasamuṭṭhānā ca pubbāpariyavasena vattamānāpi paccuppannā. Tato pubbe visabhāgautuāhārasamuṭṭhānā atītā pacchā anāgatā. Cittajā ekavīthiekajavanaekasamāpattisamuṭṭhānā paccuppannā nāma, tato pubbe atītā, pacchā anāgatā. Kammasamuṭṭhānānaṃ pāṭiyekkaṃ santativasena atītādibhedo natthi, tesaṃyeva pana utuāhāracittasamuṭṭhānānaṃ upatthambhakavasena tassa atītādibhāvo veditabbo. Samayavasena ekamuhuttapubbaṇhasāyanharattidivādīsu samayesu santānavasena pavattamānā taṃtaṃsamaye paccuppannā nāma, tato pubbe atītā, pacchā anāgatā. Ayaṃ tāva rūpadhammesu nayo. Arūpadhammesu pana khaṇavasena uppādādikkhaṇattayapariyāpannā paccuppannā, tato pubbe atītā, pacchā anāgatā. Apica atikkantahetupaccayakiccā atītā, niṭṭhitahetukiccā aniṭṭhitapaccayakiccā paccuppannā, ubhayakiccaṃ asampattā anāgatā. Attano vā kiccakkhaṇe paccuppannā, tato pubbe atītā, pacchā anāgatā. Ettha ca khaṇādikathāva nippariyāyā, sesā pariyāyā. Ayañhi atītādibhedo nāma dhammānaṃ hoti, na kālassa. Atītādibhede pana dhamme upādāya paramatthato avijjamānopi kālo idha teneva vohārena atītotiādinā vuttoti veditabbo.

    Gāthāsu akkheyyasaññinoti ettha akkhāyati, kathīyati, paññāpīyatīti akkheyyaṃ, kathāvatthu, atthato rūpādayo pañcakkhandhā. Vuttañhetaṃ –

    ‘‘Atītaṃ vā addhānaṃ ārabbha kathaṃ katheyya, anāgataṃ vā…pe… paccuppannaṃ vā addhānaṃ ārabbha kathaṃ katheyyā’’ti (dī. ni. 3.305).

    Tathā –

    ‘‘Yaṃ, bhikkhave , rūpaṃ atītaṃ niruddhaṃ vipariṇataṃ, ‘ahosī’ti tassa saṅkhā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa samaññā, ‘ahosī’ti tassa paññatti; na tassa saṅkhā atthīti, na tassa saṅkhā bhavissatī’’ti (saṃ. ni. 3.62) –

    Evaṃ vuttena niruttipathasuttenapi ettha attho dīpetabbo. Evaṃ kathāvatthubhāvena akkheyyasaṅkhāte khandhapañcake ahanti ca mamanti ca devoti ca manussoti ca itthīti ca purisoti ca ādinā pavattasaññāvasena akkheyyasaññino, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu sattapuggalādisaññinoti attho. Akkheyyasmiṃ taṇhādiṭṭhiggāhavasena patiṭṭhitā, rāgādivasena vā aṭṭhahākārehi patiṭṭhitā. Ratto hi rāgavasena patiṭṭhito hoti, duṭṭho dosavasena, mūḷho mohavasena, parāmaṭṭho diṭṭhivasena, thāmagato anusayavasena, vinibaddho mānavasena, aniṭṭhaṅgato vicikicchāvasena, vikkhepagato uddhaccavasena patiṭṭhito hotīti.

    Akkheyyaṃ apariññāyāti taṃ akkheyyaṃ tebhūmakadhamme tīhi pariññāhi aparijānitvā tassa aparijānanahetu. Yogamāyanti maccunoti maraṇassa yogaṃ tena saṃyogaṃ upagacchanti, na visaṃyoganti attho.

    Atha vā yoganti upāyaṃ, tena yojitaṃ pasāritaṃ mārasenaṭṭhāniyaṃ anatthajālaṃ kilesajālañca upagacchantīti vuttaṃ hoti. Tathā hi vuttaṃ –

    ‘‘Na hi no saṅgaraṃ tena, mahāsenena maccunā’’ti. (ma. ni. 3.272; jā. 2.22.121; netti. 103);

    Ettāvatā vaṭṭaṃ dassetvā idāni vivaṭṭaṃ dassetuṃ ‘‘akkheyyañca pariññāyā’’tiādi vuttaṃ. Tattha ca-saddo byatireke, tena akkheyyaparijānanena laddhabbaṃ vakkhamānameva visesaṃ joteti. Pariññāyāti vipassanāsahitāya maggapaññāya dukkhanti paricchijja jānitvā, tappaṭibaddhakilesappahānena vā taṃ samatikkamitvā tissannampi pariññānaṃ kiccaṃ matthakaṃ pāpetvā. Akkhātāraṃ na maññatīti sabbaso maññanānaṃ pahīnattā khīṇāsavo akkhātāraṃ na maññati, kārakādisabhāvaṃ kiñci attānaṃ na paccetīti attho. Phuṭṭhovimokkho manasā, santipadamanuttaranti yasmā sabbasaṅkhatavimuttattā ‘‘vimokkho’’ti sabbakilesasantāpavūpasamanaṭṭhānatāya ‘‘santipada’’nti laddhanāmo nibbānadhammo phuṭṭho phusito patto, tasmā akkhātāraṃ na maññatīti. Atha vā ‘‘pariññāyā’’ti padena dukkhasaccassa pariññābhisamayaṃ samudayasaccassa pahānābhisamayañca vatvā idāni ‘‘phuṭṭho vimokkho manasā, santipadamanuttara’’nti iminā magganirodhānaṃ bhāvanāsacchikiriyābhisamayaṃ vadati. Tassattho – samucchedavasena sabbakilesehi vimuccatīti vimokkho, ariyamaggo. So panassa maggacittena phuṭṭho phusito bhāvito, teneva anuttaraṃ santipadaṃ nibbānaṃ phuṭṭhaṃ phusitaṃ sacchikatanti.

    Akkheyyasampannoti akkheyyanimittaṃ vividhāhi vipattīhi upaddute loke pahīnavipallāsatāya tato suparimutto akkheyyapariññābhinibbattāhi sampattīhi sampanno samannāgato. Saṅkhāya sevīti paññāvepullappattiyā cīvarādipaccaye saṅkhāya parituletvāva sevanasīlo, saṅkhātadhammattā ca āpāthagataṃ sabbampi visayaṃ chaḷaṅgupekkhāvasena saṅkhāya sevanasīlo. Dhammaṭṭhoti asekkhadhammesu nibbānadhamme eva vā ṭhito. Vedagūti veditabbassa catusaccassa pāraṅgatattā vedagū. Evaṃguṇo arahā bhavādīsu katthaci āyatiṃ punabbhavābhāvato manussadevāti saṅkhyaṃ na upeti, apaññattikabhāvameva gacchatīti anupādāparinibbānena desanaṃ niṭṭhāpesi.

    Catutthasuttavaṇṇanā niṭṭhitā.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: Iti 63

Post by arkaprava »

Akkheyyañca pariññāya,
akkhātāraṁ na maññati;
This quote also occurs in SN 1.20 , Bhikkhu Bodhi translates it :
“But having fully understood what can be expressed,
One does not conceive ‘one who expresses.’
For that does not exist for him
By which one could describe him.
The sutta continues as follows :
“If you understand, spirit, speak up.”

“I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. Please, venerable sir, let the Blessed One explain it to me in such a way that I might understand in detail the meaning of what he stated in brief.”
The Blessed One:

“One who conceives ‘I am equal, better, or worse,’
Might on that account engage in disputes.
But one not shaken in the three discriminations
Does not think, ‘I am equal or better.’

“If you understand, spirit, speak up.”

“In this case too, venerable sir, I do not understand in detail … let the Blessed One explain it to me in such a way that I might understand in detail the meaning of what he stated in brief.”

The Blessed One:

“He abandoned reckoning, did not assume conceit;
He cut off craving here for name-and-form.
Though devas and humans search for him
Here and beyond, in the heavens and all abodes,
They do not find the one whose knots are cut,
The one untroubled, free of longing.

“If you understand, spirit, speak up.”

“I understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One thus:

“One should do no evil in all the world,
Not by speech, mind, or body.
Having abandoned sense pleasures,
Mindful and clearly comprehending,
One should not pursue a course
That is painful and harmful.”
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Re: Iti 63

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:11 pm Being disassociated from the aggregates also stops the cycle that maintains the aggregates, so one is rested.
Sounds strange because for 45 years the Buddha had no craving, had complete dispassion but had five aggregates.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Pulsar
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Pulsar »

DooDoot wrote un8- wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:11 pm
Being disassociated from the aggregates also stops the cycle that maintains the aggregates, so one is rested.
Sounds strange because for 45 years the Buddha had no craving, had complete dispassion but had five aggregates.
Buddha had aggregates? that sounds even more strange. According to dependent origination, that is impossible. If you found the evidence in the sutta pitaka, then on occasion might it contradict the doctrine?
With love :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:33 am
DooDoot wrote un8- wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:11 pm
Being disassociated from the aggregates also stops the cycle that maintains the aggregates, so one is rested.
Sounds strange because for 45 years the Buddha had no craving, had complete dispassion but had five aggregates.
Buddha had aggregates? that sounds even more strange. According to dependent origination, that is impossible. If you found the evidence in the sutta pitaka, then on occasion might it contradict the doctrine?
With love :candle:
He still experienced feeling, perception, consciousness etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Mr. Seek »

My thoughts on Ud and Iti in general are not favourable.This quote, at first glamce, seems like a mix of ideas, perhaps with the purpose of making one unbind from concepts.
Pulsar
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Pulsar »

Ceiswr wrote "he still experienced felling, perception, consciousness"
Do you mean the way you do? trapped within the aggregates?"
Arahants are not trapped within the aggregates, they have gone beyond the sensory world. Why would he feel
the way "you do"?, your consciousness is limited, his is not. Your consciousness is a
  • a magic trick
His is not; it has gone beyond magic tricks, foam, air bubbles, mirages and banana cores. I use "he" and "his" as pronouns to facilitate the communication.
Go over Dependent origination carefully again and give me a reply, not because monk X, Y and Z says so, but because Buddha says so.
  • The doctrine is pretty clear in its originality
for the one who is percipient. There is no need to use the filters of any abhidhamma except the very original.
The very original did not differ from sector to sector. There was nothing that any abhidhammas of any sector could innovate over and above the innovations of Buddha.
The only filter that is useful is correct Samma Sati as reflected in SN 47.42, leading to Samma samadhi.
But unfortunately many fail to see that. Until then???
With love :candle:
Pulsar
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Re: Iti 63

Post by Pulsar »

Mr Seek wrote
My thoughts on Ud and Iti in general are not favourable.This quote, at first glamce, seems like a mix of ideas, perhaps with the purpose of making one unbind from concepts.
True the quote on the surface looks like a mix of ideas, but when penetrated it blends in.
I think of it more or less as a poetic expression.
As for Udana and Iti it is "yes and no" Some ideas it expresses are totally influenced by Upanishads, some are not.
But then the entire canon is like this, except for Parayanavagga, Atthakavagga. As for entire sutta nipata, maybe
occasionally one finds a late addition.
But then I read Sutta nipata is part of Kuddakanikaya or whatever, that combines late and early, and some scholars reject it as late.
What a nightmare we confront? scholarly opinions and those of the Buddha, clashing?
With love :candle:
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