What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

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un8-
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What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by un8- »

So when an Arahant is in Nirodha Samapatti, everything has ceased
"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
.
- culavedalla sutta

When the mind has ceased, there is no more consciousness, what makes the mind come back?

Is it vipaka? Is it Intention? It can't be ignorance since the Arahant has destroyed it.

Consciousness is dependent on the senses
“In dependence on the ear and sounds … In dependence on the nose and odours … In dependence on the tongue and tastes … In dependence on the body and tactile objects … In dependence on the mind and mental phenomena, mind-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be; with feeling as condition, craving. This is the origin of suffering.
- sn 12.43

In Nirodha Samapatti, the senses have ceased, as the senses are also dependent on sankhara, since sankhara has ceased there is no consciousness and no senses. Normally ignorance causes sankhara to arise, but an Arahant has no ignorance.
"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]
Since all sankharas have ceased there is no consciousness or senses.

So what makes the sankharas arise again? What causes the Arahant's mind to emerge from Nirodha Samapatti to arise mental sankhara, mind consciousness, mind, and mind objects?

It can't be Intention since there is nothing that can make intentions while in Nirodha Samapatti.

All I can think of is vipaka. All culavedalla sutta says is
The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."
Does this imply that if developed good enough, an Arahant will not return from Nirodha Samapatti and instead attain Parinibbana? There is a sutta of a monk doing that, he just sits down in front of everyone and attains Parinibbana.

Maybe then an Arahant returns from Nirodha Samapatti because his mind isn't developed enough to not return from Nirodha Samapatti, aka "Nibbana with residue"

So perhaps it's the residue that makes the Arahant's mind return from Nirodha Samapatti.
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DooDoot
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by DooDoot »

Buddha has developed intention to teach those with little dust in their eyes; thus a Buddha or Arahant would probably emerge due to that intention.
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SarathW
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by SarathW »

The only way I can explain this is by using sleep and come out of sleep.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by Bundokji »

"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by un8- »

SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:46 am The only way I can explain this is by using sleep and come out of sleep.
Your mind has not ceased during sleep, it's still active. Nirodha Samapatti is not like sleep.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
un8-
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:54 am
"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."
That doesn't answer the question
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
un8-
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:45 am Buddha has developed intention to teach those with little dust in their eyes; thus a Buddha or Arahant would probably emerge due to that intention.
Does this imply that the Arahant would not develop their mind to the point of not returning from Nirodha Samapatti (i.e. attaining Parinibbana) until they have that intention to develop their mind to that point (attaining Parinibbana)?

This seems like the most plausible answer to me.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am That doesn't answer the question
Why?
"Friend, are vitality-fabrications the same thing as feeling-states? Or are vitality-fabrications one thing, and feeling-states another?"

"Vitality-fabrications are not the same thing as feeling-states, friend. If vitality-fabrications were the same thing as feeling-states, the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception would not be discerned. It's because vitality-fabrications are one thing and feeling-states another that the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling is discerned."
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by un8- »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:06 am
un8- wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am That doesn't answer the question
Why?
"Friend, are vitality-fabrications the same thing as feeling-states? Or are vitality-fabrications one thing, and feeling-states another?"

"Vitality-fabrications are not the same thing as feeling-states, friend. If vitality-fabrications were the same thing as feeling-states, the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception would not be discerned. It's because vitality-fabrications are one thing and feeling-states another that the emergence of a monk from the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling is discerned."
Because it doesn't describe the mechanism, it only explains the difference between two states.

I'm asking by what mechanism makes one emerge from nirodha Samapatti.

I think the answer is stated already in Culavedalla though, which I only noticed at the end of writing my original post, and that is
Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state.
In other words the Arahant only develops his mind to 99% (nibbana with residue) and when he is ready to not come back, he develops his mind to 100% and crosses the point of no return.

An example would be a dead-man switch, when the finger is taken off the button, it is activated, like say a bomb. In this case when the Arahant has fully let go without residue, there is no return from cessation, and he attains Parinibbana. So the Intention to come back is the deadman switch button, when that Intention is gone, it's like removing the finger from the button, the switch is activated, he develops further and doesn't emerge from nirodha samapatti. He crosses the point of no return.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by Bundokji »

un8- wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:17 am Because it doesn't describe the mechanism, it only explains the difference between two states.
Maybe describing a mechanism would require/assume that vitality fabrications are the same as feeling states. It seems what emerges from Nirodha Samapatti has the quality of freshness and cannot be explained through ideas based on self continuity. This is my interpretation which could be wrong.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
un8-
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by un8- »

I've thought of another metaphor to explain that the Arahant doesn't intend to not emerge while in Nirodha Samapatti, but before he enters Nirodha Samapatti

It's like when you clean your apartment one last time before you move out. You clean all the rooms, but you don't clean the last part with residue right before the main door as there is no point cleaning it yet until you leave the apartment for good. Once you've decided you're done and not coming back, you clean the last part, exit the apartment, and shut the door.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
SarathW
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by SarathW »

un8- wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:46 am The only way I can explain this is by using sleep and come out of sleep.
Your mind has not ceased during sleep, it's still active. Nirodha Samapatti is not like sleep.
I agree.
It Is just the analogy.
The emerging from Nirodha Samapatthi is no different to emerge from that Jhana.
Generally, the monk who enters the Nirodha makes a pre-determination on how to emerge from it. In seven days, when his teacher calls him etc.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by confusedlayman »

his life energy is still there due to non expiry of his last birth term so he is not dead when he is in deep samadhi
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
un8-
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by un8- »

SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:51 am
un8- wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:46 am The only way I can explain this is by using sleep and come out of sleep.
Your mind has not ceased during sleep, it's still active. Nirodha Samapatti is not like sleep.
I agree.
It Is just the analogy.
The emerging from Nirodha Samapatthi is no different to emerge from that Jhana.
Generally, the monk who enters the Nirodha makes a pre-determination on how to emerge from it. In seven days, when his teacher calls him etc.
It's very different than jhana. What makes one leave jhana is unwholesome mental states arising, the 5 Hindrances arising, such as craving, sloth, etc.. or even hunger which stirs up craving. In other words, it's the asavas and dukkha that makes one fall out of jhanas. One does not intentionally choose for the 5 hindrances, dukkha, and the asavas to arise and fall out of jhanas.

An Arahant has no asavas, so when he emerges from nirodha samapatti it's due to a different cause.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
SarathW
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Re: What makes the mind arise after it has ceased?

Post by SarathW »

un8- wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:18 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:51 am
un8- wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:57 am

Your mind has not ceased during sleep, it's still active. Nirodha Samapatti is not like sleep.
I agree.
It Is just the analogy.
The emerging from Nirodha Samapatthi is no different to emerge from that Jhana.
Generally, the monk who enters the Nirodha makes a pre-determination on how to emerge from it. In seven days, when his teacher calls him etc.
It's very different than jhana. What makes one leave jhana is unwholesome mental states arising, the 5 Hindrances arising, such as craving, sloth, etc.. or even hunger which stirs up craving. In other words, it's the asavas and dukkha that makes one fall out of jhanas. One does not intentionally choose for the 5 hindrances, dukkha, and the asavas to arise and fall out of jhanas.

An Arahant has no asavas, so when he emerges from nirodha samapatti it's due to a different cause.
Agree. I chose Jhana just to give an analogy.
According to Venerable Narada, this state is similar to suspending consciousness, like the stone is suspended in the air when you throw it into the air.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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