Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Gwi
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Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:54 am Vegetarianism is not torturing yourself. Are you going to apologize to Ven Pannadipa?

You are wrongly twisting MN 51, but there is no one to apologize for that to but Buddha.
I just answer this post.
I got 100 points, everybody
Get 100 points when we answer:

MN 51


What u think when someone say:
Our body have attā?

U will say no!
It is Wrong view.


They are fettered by self-view?
Will they go to hell? Or to the lower realms.

Answer: nooo.
If the morality is broken, maybe yes


Same thing with self torture case.
If the morality is broken, maybe yes.
Vegan or not.


If someone ask me this post (question),
I will give a same answer (100% same).
Why? Thats the best answer.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Ontheway »

Vegan or no vegan, it is a personal choice.

But to think that being a vegan will bring a person to higher moral ground, that's doesn't make sense.

And if the person thinks that by just being a vegan, he/she can gain Nibbana faster compared to meat-eaters, or can gain higher birth in Deva worlds or Brahma worlds compared to meat-eaters... that's conceit.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:36 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:54 amVegetarianism is not torturing yourself. Are you going to apologize to Ven Pannadipa?

You are wrongly twisting MN 51, but there is no one to apologize for that to but Buddha.
I just answer this post.
I got 100 points, everybody
Get 100 points when we answer:

MN 51
You are twisting MN 51 so that you can argue that it aligns with your personal beliefs and politics surrounding vegetarianism. You haven't "just answer." You've done nothing of the sort.

100 points from Hufflepuff.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Gwi
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Location: Indonesia

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:11 pm
Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:36 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:54 amVegetarianism is not torturing yourself. Are you going to apologize to Ven Pannadipa?

You are wrongly twisting MN 51, but there is no one to apologize for that to but Buddha.
I just answer this post.
I got 100 points, everybody
Get 100 points when we answer:

MN 51
You are twisting MN 51 so that you can argue that it aligns with your personal beliefs and politics surrounding vegetarianism. You haven't "just answer." You've done nothing of the sort.

100 points from Hufflepuff.
Thats the best answer in this world.
If Theravādin ask this question (post),
My answer is same (MN 51).

If Sakkå, Brahmā Sahampati ask me, etc.
My answer is same (MN 51).
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Then you're very determined to celebrate your wrongness. You can lead a horse to water...
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:18 pm Then you're very determined to celebrate your wrongness. You can lead a horse to water...


Even Brahmā Sahampati can't refute me
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

He could easily refute you.

:coffee:

I suggest you take some time before you post MN 51 again and actually read it. Don't just put your anti-vegetarianism baggage into it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Gwi
Posts: 333
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Location: Indonesia

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:44 pm He could easily refute you.

:coffee:

I suggest you take some time before you post MN 51 again and actually read it. Don't just put your anti-vegetarianism baggage into it.

Never n ever, THROUGHOUT THE CIRCLE OF REBIRTH!

The best answer is number 1
Ill post n share it, if someone ask
Same question, "Why Buddhå didnt go Vegan?"
Answer: MN 51 (the best answer, 100 points)

I am not anti (unlimited%),
maybe just u anti-meat (dunt lie).
I just say a truth.

Sutta Nipātå 2.2 from Buddhå Kassapå
(For anti-meat)



Do u think Buddhå Metteyyå in future,
Will say: dont eat meat??
Sutta Nipātå 2.2 will back!

Please wake up
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Gwi
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Location: Indonesia

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

Gwi wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:33 am
asahi wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:55 am There was Jains already an example of practising ahimsa . Why then Buddha didnt wants His teachings include non harming diets ?
:roll:
Because vegetarianism is a practice of self-torture.

Read: MN 51
This is my super really perfect comment,
The first commented in this post
:anjali:
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Coëmgenu
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Pride isn't Buddhist. Your precious comment is a twisting of suttas. One day in the future, you might become a deep thinker, then you will regret having wrongly quoted MN 51.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:23 pm Pride isn't Buddhist. Your precious comment is a twisting of suttas. One day in the future, you might become a deep thinker, then you will regret having wrongly quoted MN 51.
Anti meat
(Sutta Nipātå 2.2)

MN 51 is the best answer.
One day in the future, you might become a deep thinker,
Then you will quoted MN 51 bout vegan.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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Coëmgenu
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Goodbye Gwi. I hope you have fun.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:52 pm Goodbye Gwi. I hope you have fun.
Goodbye too. I hope you have fun too.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:06 am
It's okay to give anything,
but don't force (only) vegetables.
The practice of self-abuse will do nothing,
especially closing the "third fetter",
i.e. being bound by a false oath
(lifelong vegetarian oath = fetter).

However, who want be a vegetarian,
I or anyone else can't forbid.

If my son became a vegetarian,
I (still single) would say:
"Self-torture yields nothing,
otherwise the shackles you cannot break".
To my child.

Who wanna be a vegetarian,
Not my problem. But, my son
Is my problem.
I think attachment to not being a vegetarian is more of a problem.

Anyway, let's review the Buddha's position. He didn't made vegetarianism compulsory for the monks. This can be interpreted and taken with various range of attitude.

Starting from "Yes, meat all the way, Buddhists can never be vegans! We must destroy anyone who advocate veganism!" (which seems to be where you're standing), to "In light of the other teachings of the Buddha on compassion and wisdom, it's good to strongly advocate veganism, just short of making it compulsory, also, one has to distinguish between monastics and lay people in terms of the ability to choose the food to eat." (My position).

Here's plenty of other teachings from the Buddha which points to it being inconsistent to advocate for compulsory meat eating, which you seem to want to force on your potential future children.
  • The first precept: It’s to avoid killing. To reconcile the ability to eat meat while practising the first precept, the precept means no direct killing. So don’t eat live food, like insects, seafood, osters, octopus etc. Also, don’t order for a fish to be killed just to be served for you. But that’s only the basic step.
    If we go beyond the first precept, it’s logical to try to develop avoiding indirect killing as much as possible too. That means going vegan. Even if there is some blood in the harvesting process for plants, it’s much less compared to the meat industry, as the animals eat much more plants and then get killed too. That’s also a natural result of practising loving-kindness. We want to be able to reduce other’s suffering as much as possible.
  • Right livelihood: avoid trading in meat, living beings, weapons, poison, alcohol, also avoid livelihood which breaks the 5 precepts. How is one able to still eat meat then? It’s to eat meat prepared by butchers of other religions. It’s to have cognitive dissonance that buying has nothing to do with the trade.
    So a Buddhist majority country like Thailand, Myanmar who are not also majority vegans do have to deal with uncomfortable truths. The meat they enjoy is due to the presence of some butchers of other religions, regardless of whether the meat comes from outside or inside their borders. So is that not a bit hypocrite? To have others bear the kamma of killing just so that one can enjoy meat?
    To link up the act of buying with trade, it’s obvious that if we buy meat, we are the paymasters of the butchers, even if it goes through several layers of middle man, the intention is still clear. Meat buyers send a message to those involved in the trade of meat, living beings that their livelihood is ok, is supported by them. It’s like buying guns from weapons dealers, you give money for them to continue operate to cause a lot of harm in the world. Is that really ok with your conscience?
  • Metta: loving-kindness. And applied to beings who suffer, it’s compassion. Compassion crucially is not only wishing that other’s suffering is gone, but to act to help reduce suffering. One way to continue eating meat despite having practise these is to have cognitive dissonance, one does not have these feelings outside of meditation or that it’s not universally applied. More applied to humans than the animals due to be slaughtered. Those not yet to be born, but due to be slaughtered in the future as well.
    As highlighted above, it’s a pretty powerful tool to help set the motivation for going vegan by applying metta towards the animals to be slaughtered, and those to be born to be killed. The reason why so many animals can be killed in the first place is because humans force breed them to meet the demands of meat. So going vegans is having compassion for those to be born. Also, when it comes right down to it, all three reasons for going vegans are compassion. Environment is compassion for the humans and animals of this planet, to avoid them from facing worse global warming. Health is compassion for oneself to have the best interest of one’s health at heart when choosing to go vegan. And of course the animals themselves.
  • The Buddha didn’t ban monks from being vegans. When meat eater Buddhists respond to vegan promoters, they usually bring up the story of Devadatta trying to convert the monks and nuns to be vegetarians.
    Looking closely at the story, it’s clear that the Buddha also didn’t say that lay Buddhist cannot be vegans. The Buddha allowed for pure meat (not seen, heard or suspected), but he didn’t outright say that monks and nuns themselves cannot choose to be vegans. He just didn’t make it compulsory for them to be one. Granted it’s super hard for monks and nuns to be vegans at the time. However, in many places now the Theravada meal offerings are in buffet style, so the monks can choose what food to eat by themselves. The choice of food may be interpreted by the lay people who are offering it as oh this monk likes that meat, next time we should always prepare that meat for them. So it can cause indirect harm in this way. One way for monks and nuns to help is to declare themselves as vegans and have Dhamma talks encouraging veganism, and only choosing the vegan dishes at meal offerings which are buffet styles. This way of living by example can encourage a lot of the disciples to offer only vegan food and maybe even turn vegan themselves, helping with reducing suffering in the world.
  • Dependent Origination: buying creates demand which drives future killing, present killing is due to future demands. Some people use this time lag and distance from the killing from the mass of economic process of transferring meat to lay aside the responsibility of meat eating to killing of the animal. While it’s true that in the story of the serial killer who was demanded by the people to be caught and then sentences the serial killer to death, the kamma of killing is due to the executioner and the judge rather than the public who demanded safety. So it is with the meat. However, it’s also possible to imagine a world without capital punishment. Thus no killing is done. It’s possible to imagine a world of vegans, thus minimizing killing. As a world of vegans involves the work of everyone, is it not better to choose to go vegan in pursuit of that hope rather than base our actions only on kamma? Don’t say that it’s impossible to have a world of vegans. Slavery used to be common place. Women used to be inferior to men. LGBT used to be known as unacceptable behavior. Social change is coming, and it’s the vegan time.
  • Rebirth in the animal realms. As we had undergo beginningless rebirth, it’s hard to find anyone who had not been our relatives in the past. Thus most if not all of the meat eaten had at one point in the past been our father, mother, spouse, children, relatives. It’s disgusting to think about it and can be a good motivation to abandon meat due to this reason. One way of continuing eating meat is to don’t think too much.
  • The banning of certain animals to the monks and nuns. The meat of these animals are not to be consumed by monks or nuns. Human beings, elephants, horses, dogs, snakes, lions, tigers, leopards, bears, and hyenas. Ignorance is not an excuse as the Buddha did scold the monk who eat human flesh without inquiring about it. For the dog’s case it’s that society find it unacceptable for monks and nuns to eat dogs. You can clearly see that cats is missing from the list. Yet it’s also easy to imagine such an uproar from people if cat’s flesh is served to the monks and is consumed. One way to continue eating meat is to stick to the rules. Meat not of these animals can be eaten. However, an easier way around to go would be just to go vegan.
On MN 51, it seems reasonable too, say I as a vegan monk accept the meat and fish, but I can choose not to eat them. There's no issue with self torture now is there? Since there's accepting. Anyway this is the practical advice given by my senior monks to just accept then I can choose to give the meat stuffs to animals as leftovers. Practically speaking, most of the time, the meat and fishes are on buffet style, I can very well choose not to put them in my bowl, even if I have to accept the whole buffet on behalf of the Sangha. There's no legitimate grounds for censure from you then.

Also, a tip for debating online, don't just stick to one answer, it sounds like low effort, or you're unable to elicit the response you want, you keep on pressing the same button. It's good to try different ways, different approaches. Don't be so arrogant as to invoke the names of Brahma and gods.
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Gwi
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Re: Why Buddha didnt go vegan ?

Post by Gwi »

salayatananirodha wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:57 am
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/snp2.2 wrote:Taking life, torture, mutilation too,
binding, stealing, telling lies, and fraud;
deceit, adultery, and studying crooked views:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Those people of desires and pleasures unrestrained,
greedy for tastes with impurity mixed in,
of nihilistic views, unstable, hard to train:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

The rough, the cruel, backbiters and betrayers,
those void of compassion, extremely arrogant,
the miserly, to others never giving anything:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Who’s angry, obstinate, hostile and vain,
deceitful, envious, a boastful person too,
full of oneself, with the wicked intimate:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Those of evil ways, defaulters on debts,
imposters, slanderers, deceitful in their dealings,
vile men who commit evil deeds in this world:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Those people unrestrained for living beings here,
taking others’ property, on injury intent,
immoral, harsh and cruel, for others no respect:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Towards others greedy or hateful—they attack them,
ever on misdemeanours bent,
they go to darkness after death;
such beings as this fall headlong into Hell:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Not from fish and flesh tasting and not by nudity,
not by the plucking of head-hairs,
nor growing of matted locks,
not by the smearing of the ashes of the dead,
not wearing abrasive skins,
not following sacrificial fires,
or worldly austerities for gaining immortality,
nor mantras, nor offerings,
oblations, seasons’ services
can purify a mortal still overcome by doubt.

Who lives with sense-streams guarded, well-aware,
in the Dharma firm, enjoying gently rectitude,
beyond attachments gone, all dukkha left behind,
that wise one’s unsullied by the seen and the heard.
eating meat is not blameworthy
:goodpost:
That from Buddhå Kassapå
(all Buddhås too [future too])

vegan or not, not my problem, i just
Answer the truth.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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