"The Buddha via the Bible"

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Kjigme
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"The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by Kjigme »

I found this dhamma talk by Bhikkhu Thanissaro really profound and interesting.
I want to share this article and maybe see what you guys' opinions are. It is a complex subject, fascinating and yet worriesome.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Head& ... n0015.html

:namaste:
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Buddha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Dhamma, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!
We beings here assembled, whether terrestrial or celestial, salute the Accomplished Sangha, honoured by gods and men. May there be happiness!

Ratana Sutta
Mr. Seek
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by Mr. Seek »

un8-
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by un8- »

I skimmed through the article, and there's some points I agree and disagree with this.
One of the tests for determining whether one has reached the first level of awakening is if, on reflection, one realizes that no one outside the Buddha’s teaching teaches the true, accurate, way to the goal (SN 48:53). Although individual people may have to focus on issues particular to their temperament, the basic outline of the path is the same for all.
If only there wasn't a thousand different interpretations of the suttas alone, let alone other traditions within theravada and outside theravada.

That's the problem with relying on ancient texts.

For me what matters is implications and consequences. I read the Torah (old testament) and there's nothing in it about heaven or hell, that came way later. So the purpose of the Torah is to live a good life, for someone who lived 3000 years ago. Yes, of course you shouldn't eat pork in those times as it would lead to a host of issues. You shouldn't have sex with your sister either, etc.. so the Torah gives practical ground rules for that time period. But it has nothing about consequences after death of the after life, it even states in Ecclesiastes that both good and bad go to sheoul where all dead people go. So it's a useless doctrine to me, whereas Stoicism is a lot more practical for mental health.

Now comparing the suttas to stoicism, the suttas talk about afterlife consequences which I cannot confirm, but they also talk about consequences here and now, in terms of feelings, relationships, cravings, suffering, etc. So to me both Stoicism and the Suttas are strong contenders.

But as for the dhamma/suttas being "the only way out of suffering", I think that can't be confirmed because it's obscured by the countless interpretations.

I agree with the precepts, but many religions have similar precepts, so that's not unique to the dhamma. What's unique to the Buddha Dhamma is Supermundane Right View
"And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view[1] in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
and that is knowing how to overcome the 5 hindrances in order to confirm Paṭiccasamuppāda.

But getting to that point is again obscured by interpretations, for example you can't get to that point without understanding Yoniso Manasikara, which is needed to overcome the 5 hindrances, but even that has many interpretations..

And then Paṭiccasamuppāda itself has several interpretations like three life model vs one life, etc..

So there may be one path out of suffering, but that path is obscured by interpretations as a result of too many schisms and time that has passed since the Buddha.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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DooDoot
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

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Kjigme wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:29 am I found this dhamma talk by Bhikkhu Thanissaro really profound and interesting.
Hi. Its probably best u quote some passages u regard as compelling. Thanks :smile:
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DooDoot
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:00 am knowing how to overcome the 5 hindrances in order to confirm Paṭiccasamuppāda.... And then Paṭiccasamuppāda itself has several interpretations like three life model vs one life, etc..
The above appears to be saying u have not confirmed the Teachings for yourself. In other words, your approach is Biblical.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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un8-
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:11 am
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:00 am knowing how to overcome the 5 hindrances in order to confirm Paṭiccasamuppāda.... And then Paṭiccasamuppāda itself has several interpretations like three life model vs one life, etc..
The above appears to be saying u have not confirmed the Teachings for yourself. In other words, your approach is Biblical.
Indeed. Same goes for the majority, if not all people here as well.

How do you know you confirmed it?

For example you wrote that a once-returner is celibate, which is wrong, so if you were wrong about that, you're probably wrong about other things, so you are overconfident and overestimating your abilities.
DooDoot wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:08 am To become sakadāgāmi, it is important to develop tranquility (samatha) so sensual desire is reduced & contentment from tranquility (samatha) replaces the need for sensual happiness. Therefore, the sakadāgāmi returns occasionally to sensuality, such as delighting in Thai sticky-rice & mango or coconut or chocolate ice-cream, if offered. But sakadāgāmi does not need course types of sensual happiness, such as sexual intercourse, movies, music, etc.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
dharmacorps
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by dharmacorps »

As usual, Ajahn Geoff is very perceptive of how the dhamma is twisted to "fit" western culture, often to the detriment of the dhamma. Read his book Buddhist Romanticism for a thorough handling of the matter.
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by cappuccino »

un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:00 am But as for the dhamma/suttas being "the only way out of suffering", I think that can't be confirmed
well he said it would be confirmed


in the first stage of awakening
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DooDoot
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 am Indeed.
Well spoken. So you admit Paṭiccasamuppāda is blind faith for you, which appears Biblical. The Bible says:
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen :roll: .

Hebrews 11:1
:alien:
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 am Same goes for the majority, if not all people here as well.
Unsubstantiated. Also, a non-realiser cannot determine realisers. The Bible says: "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” (Matthew 15:14)
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 amHow do you know you confirmed it?
In MN 38, dependent origination & its cessation is said to be verified by the wise, since it leads onwards (opaneyyiko; to cessation of dukkha). For example, that sorrow & grief comes from death is known by non-Buddhists yet bloggers on Buddhist forums declare they haven't realised it :roll: .
Grief (sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā) is the response to loss, particularly to the loss of someone (satta) or some living thing that has died (marana), to which a bond or affection (upadana) was formed (bhava). :weep:

Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grief
The Bible says: "always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth". (2 Timothy 3:7) :roll:
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 amFor example you wrote that a once-returner is celibate
Sounds false.
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:23 am which is wrong, so if you were wrong about that, you're probably wrong about other things, so you are overconfident and overestimating your abilities.
Unlikely. Obviously the above is wrong.
DooDoot wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:08 am To become sakadāgāmi, it is important to develop tranquility (samatha) so sensual desire is reduced & contentment from tranquility (samatha) replaces the need for sensual happiness. Therefore, the sakadāgāmi returns occasionally to sensuality, such as delighting in Thai sticky-rice & mango or coconut or chocolate ice-cream, if offered.
Sounds correct. :thumbsup: The suttas say a sakadāgāmi returns to sensuality (Iti 96).
DooDoot wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:08 am But sakadāgāmi does not need course types of sensual happiness, such as sexual intercourse, movies, music, etc.
Sounds correct. As for those stories about lay married sakadāgāmi, we know nothing about their sex lives. They may have remained at home for the sake of family duty. Also, even if they had sexual intercourse, again, it could have been occasionally for the sake of family duty rather than for "need". If you are relying on AN 6.44, then it was the laywoman Migasālā in that sutta who claimed her uncle Isidatta was not celibate rather than the Buddha. In AN 6.44, the Buddha heavily rebukes the ideas of the laywoman Migasālā. Next, similar to Biblical stories, you will be quote stories about stream-enterers who married hunters. :roll:

:smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by DooDoot »

dharmacorps wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:26 pm As usual, Ajahn Geoff is very perceptive of how the dhamma is twisted to "fit" western culture, often to the detriment of the dhamma. Read his book Buddhist Romanticism for a thorough handling of the matter.
The article appears ridiculous. For example:
Thanissaro wrote:The Canon never defines mindfulness as an open, receptive, pre-verbal state.
While the above ideas are common in Buddhism, they appear not derived from the Bible. Instead, they are derived from Buddhism, such as:
MN 10 wrote:Mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world...

MN 10
MN 38 wrote:He isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness.

MN 38
Those American Jews who largely invented American Buddhism appear to have learned their "non-judgmental awareness" in Asia, with Mahasi, Ajahn Chah, etc. I doubt those American Jews read the Christian Bible.
Thanissaro wrote:Western culture learned how to read spiritual texts by reading the Bible. For example, the way we read the Pāli Canon has largely been influenced by modern attitudes toward the Bible that date back to the German Romantics and American Transcendentalists—primarily Ralph Waldo Emerson.
The above appears to be a self-projection by Thanissaro upon his own extensive history in dabbling in Western philosophy and religion. For example, i personally have no idea about who German Romantics, American Transcendentalists & Ralph Waldo Emerson are.

:rolleye: :cry:
Thanissaro wrote:1. The first principle is that the Canon, like all spiritual texts, takes interconnectedness—the experience of unity within and without—as its basic theme. On attaining this unity, one drops the identity of one’s small self and embraces a new identity with the universe at large.
The above is obviously the experience of metta & samadhi. Its strange Thanissaro would condemn this. :roll:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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un8-
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:57 pm
DooDoot wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:08 am To become sakadāgāmi, it is important to develop tranquility (samatha) so sensual desire is reduced & contentment from tranquility (samatha) replaces the need for sensual happiness. Therefore, the sakadāgāmi returns occasionally to sensuality, such as delighting in Thai sticky-rice & mango or coconut or chocolate ice-cream, if offered.
Sounds correct. :thumbsup: The suttas say a sakadāgāmi returns to sensuality (Iti 96).
DooDoot wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:08 am But sakadāgāmi does not need course types of sensual happiness, such as sexual intercourse, movies, music, etc.
Sounds correct. As for those stories about lay married sakadāgāmi, we know nothing about their sex lives. They may have remained at home for the sake of family duty. Also, even if they had sexual intercourse, again, it could have been occasionally for the sake of family duty rather than for "need". If you are relying on AN 6.44, then it was the laywoman Migasālā in that sutta who claimed her uncle Isidatta was not celibate rather than the Buddha. In AN 6.44, the Buddha heavily rebukes the ideas of the laywoman Migasālā. Next, similar to Biblical stories, you will be quote stories about stream-enterers who married hunters. :roll:

:smile:
That interpretation doesn't seem plausible to me, there's a lot of insinuation and assumption involved. There's no sutta that says what kind of sensuality a once-returner enjoys like "thai sticky rice", so your post is unfounded. It's ok to make mistakes.

Unfortunately, you've overestimated an attainment, like many people on the internet. Keep at it though, I hope you one day figure it out and then can teach the rest of us. :thumbsup:
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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DooDoot
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:58 pm There's no sutta that says what kind of sensuality a once-returner enjoys like "thai sticky rice", so your post is unfounded. It's ok to make mistakes.
The suttas say about sakadāgāmī:
Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state.

Iti 98
Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a sakadāgāmī.

AN 3.86
Sakadāgāmī has weakened greed thus attraction to sensual pleasures. If sakadāgāmī has strong attraction to sensual pleasures, maintaining the training would be too difficult for them.
:coffee:
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:58 pmUnfortunately, you've overestimated an attainment, like many people on the internet. Keep at it though, I hope you one day figure it out and then can teach the rest of us.
Unfortunately, you came upon a cross-road but chose one way instead of another. :pig:
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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un8-
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:26 am
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:58 pm There's no sutta that says what kind of sensuality a once-returner enjoys like "thai sticky rice", so your post is unfounded. It's ok to make mistakes.
The suttas say about sakadāgāmī:
Bhikkhus, one bound by the bond of sensual desire and by the bond of being is a returner, one who comes back to this state.

Iti 98
Take another case of a mendicant who has fulfilled their ethics, but has limited immersion and wisdom. They break some lesser and minor training rules, but are restored. Why is that? Because I don’t say they’re incapable of that. But they’re constant and steady in their precepts regarding the training rules that are fundamental, befitting the spiritual path. They keep the rules they’ve undertaken. With the ending of three fetters, and the weakening of greed, hate, and delusion, they’re a sakadāgāmī.

AN 3.86
Sakadāgāmī has weakened greed thus attraction to sensual pleasures. If sakadāgāmī has strong attraction to sensual pleasures, maintaining the training would be too difficult for them.
:coffee:
un8- wrote: Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:58 pmUnfortunately, you've overestimated an attainment, like many people on the internet. Keep at it though, I hope you one day figure it out and then can teach the rest of us.
Unfortunately, you came upon a cross-road but chose one way instead of another. :pig:
That still doesn't say anything about what type of sensuality a once-returner enjoys, which is what you said, it doesn't say anything about them liking food and "mango chocolate coconut ice cream" over sex. It honestly sounds like you're injecting your lifestyle and food addictions into your dhamma interpretation to rationalize to yourself that you've attained once return. I understand why you do it, it must be hard to invest 30 years studying the dhamma but still running in circles so you have to convince yourself that you've attained something rather than admit you're like everyone else.

Thank you for the effort though. Seems like you're stuck in the world of interpretations and bible faith like everyone else, except some are aware of it, and some are not. It only shows religion can be a dangerous thing, like your quote in your signature about cutting yourself, perfectly sums it up.

Good luck, I hope you find peace.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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DooDoot
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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by DooDoot »

un8- wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:26 am That still doesn't say anything about what type of sensuality a once-returner enjoys, which is what you said, it doesn't say anything about them liking food and "mango chocolate coconut ice cream" over sex.
Sorry but the suttas say the sakadāgāmi has reduced greed. The Puttamansa Sutta appears to define a sakadāgāmi as one no longer attracted to food. Therefore, obviously food is a more refined sensual desire than sex.
un8- wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:26 amsakadāgāmi It honestly
Sorry but conjecture & speculation can never be "honesty". The above sounds illogical.
un8- wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:26 am sounds like you're injecting your lifestyle and food addictions
What addictions? Haven't eaten Thai sticky rice & mango in decades. Obviously, the idea posted is speculation and not honesty.
un8- wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:26 am into your dhamma interpretation to rationalize to yourself that you've attained once return.
Not at all. Again, in Dhamma, the above appears to be slander.

Again, its best to return to the start of the discussion about Biblicalism. I said it appears evident by your post you have not realised Paticcasummupada. You then affirmed this to be true. I am not sure why you then speculated about sakadāgāmi.

It is quite obvious for those who have abandoned sex, such as myself, that the pleasure of food is more subtle than the pleasure of sex. For example, if you have lived in a monastery, eating one meal per day, when the food arrives in the morning, there appears lots of craving evident, all round. This is not related to making a claim to be a sakadāgāmi. Even the suttas refer to the Buddha using the term "delicious food" served to the monks. Any delight whatsoever in food is craving.
Suppavāsā
AN 4.57 — Bhikkhu Bodhi

satisfied the Blessed One with various kinds of delicious food.
Some things are very obvious, such as sorrow is caused by death, which is caused by identity, which is caused by attachment. That is why people grieve for family but not for strangers. It is a Biblical approach to not follow what is obvious but, instead, incline towards the "miraculous". :shock:

The Buddha said in MN 38 that Paticcasummupada is visible in the here & now.
un8- wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:26 amI understand
No, no, no... :|
un8- wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:26 amGood luck, I hope you find peace.
Again, another crossroad. :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: "The Buddha via the Bible"

Post by un8- »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:38 am
un8- wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:26 am That still doesn't say anything about what type of sensuality a once-returner enjoys, which is what you said, it doesn't say anything about them liking food and "mango chocolate coconut ice cream" over sex.
Sorry but the suttas say the sakadāgāmi has reduced greed. The Puttamansa Sutta appears to define a sakadāgāmi as one no longer attracted to food. Therefore, obviously food is a more refined sensual desire than sex.
You're contradicting yourself. Earlier you stated a once-returner occasionally enjoys food like thai sticky rice and coconut ice cream, but not sex. Now you state they're not attracted to food. Also your conclusion "obviously food is a more refined sensual desire than sex." is not supported by the previous sentences, them being not attracted to food has nothing to do with sex. You should take a logical thinking class my friend, it will help you understand things better.

Overall, seems like you're making things up which are not supported by any sutta. But alas, you can't reason with a cafeteria buddhist who picks and chooses mango ice cream over sex and claims to be a once returner.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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