The conceit of "i am equal"

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Bundokji
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Bundokji »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:28 pm
"If you stop making comparisons and coming to conclusions, that is salvation. Of course, before you get to that point, you have to make some comparisons, and some conclusions; but in the end, all clothes go off."
If i may add to your input, the way the Buddha deconstructed the self as "five aggregates" seems universal and not suitable to hierarchical comparisons.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
sphairos
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by sphairos »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:28 pm
sphairos wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:21 pm There is a great paper about that , through the Abhidhamma lens,

The Conceit of Self-Loathing
Maria Heim

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23497369

http://enlight.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/ ... 203288.pdf

The main theme is self-loathing, but the "equality" is also addressed.

As far as I remember the explanation is that there is no real equality in the world and whenever you think "equal" you are conceiting.
One could argue that there is no real nibbana in the world, but through practice and effort to understand conditionality, we can find it as an element of nature known by a few.
If you want to argue you will argue :D
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How true are your ways?
Bundokji
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Bundokji »

sphairos wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:40 pm If you want to argue you will argue :D
This was in reply to the Abhidammic explanation as you remember it. I guess any reference to metaphysical concepts such as "real" are the basis of an argument.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:19 pm ...
1- I am superior
2- I am inferior
3- I am equal
...


Comparing is the issue. And, the common denominator is "I".

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Sam Vara
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Sam Vara »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:22 pm
Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:19 pm ...
1- I am superior
2- I am inferior
3- I am equal
...


Comparing is the issue. And, the common denominator is "I".

:heart:
:goodpost: Yes, that's how I see it.
asahi
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by asahi »

Comparing is not the issue . Say an apple is not an orange . The issue lies in the "i" .
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Bundokji
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Bundokji »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:22 pm Comparing is the issue. And, the common denominator is "I".
Identity view is the first fetter. Do you see any connection between "identical" and "equal"?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by SarathW »

Mr. Seek wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:35 pm Because by making such a comparison you cling and crave to concepts such as me, I, other, equal, unequal, superior, inferior. And thus there is conceit, you've fashioned a self, others, etc.

It-s all about cutting through objectification, classifications, and perceptions. By letting go of all these, one wakes up.

This is largely in the domain of advanced practicioners though.
:goodpost:
We are equal is a result of self-view.
You have to go beyond Brahama.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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zerotime
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by zerotime »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:19 pm According to the above, why "i am equal" is considered conceit :thinking: ? Why people have faith it it if it does not work? Many political systems embraced the notion of equality, and their failure might be due to the wrong application, not the concept itself.
many legal systems are supported in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which starts in a poor way:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

Why are they born free and equal?. No answer in the formulation.

Probably it would be better to say:

"All human beings are unique, and therefore are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

when leaving equality in the moral root of human dignity, it can evolve into harmful views in its worse version. In example, today that formulation cannot stop the moral acceptance of human eugenics into democratic systems and its Sciences.

However, when thinking in others like unique beings the moral is higher and their lives are more precious.
Also, the thought "I'm unique" is not a type of conceit.

Just my view.
form
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by form »

In real life this is a double age sword. For example, if you see someone who learn new things a lot slower than you, or perceived situation with lots of distortion, you will probably see it as a "don't" example. There will be comparison for such a notion to exist in the consciousness.

Lastly, all our literature is filled with I, new, you, they, their, my, yours etc. Such notions comes with relativity. Without relativity, there is nothing.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:47 pm
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:22 pm Comparing is the issue. And, the common denominator is "I".
Identity view is the first fetter. Do you see any connection between "identical" and "equal"?
  • Strictly speaking, depending upon usage, "I" can be more than a "view". Some related info below from sn22.89





asahi wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:36 pm Comparing is not the issue . Say an apple is not an orange . The issue lies in the "i" .

  • Excellent! :goodpost:



  • I also said: the common denominator is the "I", meaning that "I" cannot be left out from perspective. My sentences in the previous post are to be taken together. Actually, I already combined the two sentences together several hours or so ago, ready for posting, waiting for an appropriate time:
    • Comparing, with the common denominator "I", is the issue.
    Furthermore, to be more explicit & right on point, I 100% second your sentence of:
    • The issue lies in the "i" .



  • Here, the "I' also encompasses the kind of "I" that the non-returner Venerable khemaka talked about in SN22.89:
    • I do not speak of form as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from form. I do not speak of feeling as ‘I am’ … nor of perception as ‘I am’ … nor of volitional formations as ‘I am’ … nor of consciousness as ‘I am,’ nor do I speak of ‘I am’ apart from consciousness. Friends, although the notion ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to clinging, still I do not regard anything among them as ‘This I am.’
      “Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, still, in relation to the five aggregates subject to clinging, there lingers in him a residual conceit ‘I am,’ a desire ‘I am,’ an underlying tendency ‘I am’ that has not yet been uprooted. Sometime later he dwells contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging: ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling … such is perception … such are volitional formations … such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away.’ As he dwells thus contemplating rise and fall in the five aggregates subject to clinging, the residual conceit ‘I am,’ the desire ‘I am,’ the underlying tendency ‘I am’ that had not yet been uprooted—this comes to be uprooted.
      Here, Bhikkhu Bodhi used (the notion "I am"); also translated by Bhikkhu Sujato as (the conceit ‘I am’).
:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
pegembara
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by pegembara »

"All human beings are unique, and therefore are born free and equal in dignity and rights."
"All 'beings' are born equal" says a lamb to the lion.

Says who? In whose world?
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Bundokji
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Bundokji »

zerotime wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 12:10 am many legal systems are supported in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which starts in a poor way:

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

Why are they born free and equal?. No answer in the formulation.

Probably it would be better to say:

"All human beings are unique, and therefore are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

when leaving equality in the moral root of human dignity, it can evolve into harmful views in its worse version. In example, today that formulation cannot stop the moral acceptance of human eugenics into democratic systems and its Sciences.

However, when thinking in others like unique beings the moral is higher and their lives are more precious.
Also, the thought "I'm unique" is not a type of conceit.

Just my view.
Yes. One could ask what is it that makes us equal except being different, or as Margaret Thatcher once said: "Humans are not equal, but every human life is equally important". Needless to say that she believed in wars! The idea of Justice seems to be a prerequisite for other set of ideas such as reward and punishment.

In the context of Buddhism, the idea of equality or being equal seems closest to "equanimity" which shares the same linguistic root. In this case, the near enemy is said to be indifference, so overlooking differences is not necessarily a solution.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Bundokji »

form wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:11 am In real life this is a double age sword. For example, if you see someone who learn new things a lot slower than you, or perceived situation with lots of distortion, you will probably see it as a "don't" example. There will be comparison for such a notion to exist in the consciousness.

Lastly, all our literature is filled with I, new, you, they, their, my, yours etc. Such notions comes with relativity. Without relativity, there is nothing.
I think its a double edged sword in the sense that the ideas of superior and inferior always have equality associated with them and vice versa. Again, you can always imagine a scale with the two sides being unbalanced, but they have to be unbalanced in equal terms. Otherwise, the scale would be dysfunctional.

1KG 500 Grams, but without knowing how much is lacking, we cannot balance the scale. When the scale is balanced, the unit of measurement is neutralized and becomes nothing as a factor of determining value, hence other factors come in to fill the gap. 1KG of oranges equals 1KG of apples in terms of weight, but not necessarily equal in terms of market value, color, taste or other characteristics.

The ideas of inferior, superior and equal seem to mimic the ideas of arising, ceasing and persisting. What seems to be persisting is equality. In philosophical terms, this translates into the ought/is problem. As a general rule, the "ought" resembles equality while the "is" resembles inferiority and/or superiority.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: The conceit of "i am equal"

Post by Bundokji »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:27 am
  • Strictly speaking, depending upon usage, "I" can be more than a "view". Some related info below from sn22.89
Speaking of the "i" being more than a view can be relevant to the shape of the human body and other animals, which is often said to be "bilaterally symmetrical" mimicking the laws of nature and the idea of the scale in our judicial system. This becomes a main measurement of beauty and driver to our sense of aesthetics. This also expresses itself in other domains, be it music, art or architecture.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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