The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

[DooDoot]

Venerable Sāriputta said, "bhavanirodha nibbānaṃ." It is too general to specify that suffering "includes" bhava.

I am placing you again on ignore. Oh dear. Possibly someone else can help you.

"And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

AN 3.61

[DooDoot]

Rupa is the images created in the mentally proliferating state, it is mental.

The suttas do not say this. The suttas say rupa is the four elements, as follows:

“Rāhula, the interior earth element is said to be anything hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior earth element. The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element.

And what is the water element? The water element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior water element? Anything that’s water, watery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, snot, synovial fluid, urine, or anything else that’s water, watery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior water element. The interior water element and the exterior water element are just the water element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the water element, detaching the mind from the water element.

And what is the fire element? The fire element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior fire element? Anything that’s fire, fiery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: that which warms, that which ages, that which heats you up when feverish, that which properly digests food and drink, or anything else that’s fire, fiery, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior fire element. The interior fire element and the exterior fire element are just the fire element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the fire element, detaching the mind from the fire element.

And what is the air element? The air element may be interior or exterior. And what is the interior air element? Anything that’s wind, windy, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes: winds that go up or down, winds in the belly or the bowels, winds that flow through the limbs, in-breaths and out-breaths, or anything else that’s air, airy, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This is called the interior air element. The interior air element and the exterior air element are just the air element. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ When you truly see with right understanding, you reject the air element, detaching the mind from the air element.

https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato

[DooDoot]

Correct your understanding of Rupa, in DO,

My understanding is correct, as follows:

“When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering.'

https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/bodhi

It appears you are preaching Brahminism about nama-rupa. It seems there is no meditative experience about how the mind effects the body.

[mjaviem]

How are the form and the formless elements different from the sensual element is my question. As this is a free forum, I would guess that for example in a bar of chocolate, additionally to its form, there is a sensual element. If we have eaten already and are full but are tempted by this sensual element and we are determined to get it and savor it, we would have become someone in the sensual realm, even perhaps some sort of a thief or a violent prone person with the mission of getting the chocolate.

A non-sensual becoming must have a desire that is not sensual. I wonder if the desire to live alone or to abandon greed, lust, and ill-will could lead to a non-sensual becoming.

And about hearing or reading the message of a good reputation or a message that we dislike I'm not sure, the text and the sound are sense objects but are dead until we make meaning out of them so our liking or disliking is on the meaning and not on the sense object. This is a good topic to follow, I hope people post their understanding.

Perhaps there are three degrees of renunciation. We renounce to sensuality so when seeing the chocolate bar we are no more enticed by it but we still think that bar of chocolate is ours and belongs to us as many other things. Then if we manage further renunciation we stop seeing these things as belonging to us, we stop seeing forms as ours, we turn to be spectators in the world, nothing belong to us, we don't leave any footprints, we don't involve with any sight, sound, smell, taste or tactile sensation yet we still are there, we are spectators, we still expect and that's because we cling to the formless, we can leave form behind but we still have our consciousness of these things, we still have intentions and aspirations of our own.

[Coëmgenu]

Venerable Sāriputta said, "bhavanirodha nibbānaṃ." It is too general to specify that suffering "includes" bhava.

I am placing you again on ignore. Oh dear. Possibly someone else can help you.

Am I correct in saying that you cannot substantiate or support a single claim you've made on this thread? You don't have to answer if I'm correct. I wouldn't want to pressure you to engage. Feel free to ignore all of my posts and never respond to any of them.

Because I've had you set to "ignore" for years, and presently still do, there's a lot that I miss amidst your internet meanderings. Take for instance this:

1. contact - taste frogs legs
2. feeling - have pleasant feeling from tasting frogs legs
3. craving - have craving for frogs legs
4. attachment - grasp to taste & feeling from frogs legs
5. becoming - mind is "established/stuck on" the taste of frogs legs
6. birth - loving frogs legs becomes part of your personality; so if restaurant does not have frogs legs you get angry or upset

Can you support this exegesis using actual content that is directly stated in the suttas to substantiate your interpretations of elements 5 & 6? You cannot.

Also, please note, there is no need for you to engage with me in any way on this forum or respond to this message if it upsets you. I take non-engagement very seriously and can switch to talking about you in the third person rather than addressing you directly if that is similarly upsetting. I will not cease to correct you or quote you, but I can cease speaking to you directly if you so desire. I can talk about your posts instead of directly to you if that's how you would prefer things be done.

[Bundokji]

The four elements can also describe inanimate becoming. This can be demonstrated through the water element, which can be solid (ice), liquid (water) and steam (air) where the determining factor between these three states is heat (fire). In animate objects, the mind is associated with the air element, hence often described as "ethereal" or "spiritual". From evolutionary perspective, weather is a contributing factor of how the mind evolves, and those who were raised in colder areas are said to develop a relationship with the future to ensure their survival.

[Coëmgenu]

With specific reference to "arūpabhava," we have Dīghanikāya Sutta No. 1, the Brahmajālasutta:

Santi, bhikkhave, asaññasattā nāma devā. Saññuppādā ca pana te devā tamhā kāyā cavanti.
There are, bhikkhus, certain gods called ‘non-percipient beings.’ When perception (sañña) arises in them, those gods pass away from that plane.

This, the arūpadhātu, is where the arūpasamāpattis take you. It is also why they are so dangerous for all but the most profound disciples of the Buddhas. And this has to be stressed very much. Reaching the arūpasamāpattis is very rare, ever rarer than the jhānāni. Anyone who reaches any arūpasamāpatti is a profound dhyānin, yet those which they reach are dangerous. This is a danger only certain rare people need look out for.