I don't know. It would seem they are in the sensual realm. They are likeable sense objects so, it seems so. Though I can't imagine attachment to something in "the luminuous form" or in the "formless" realms. Don't now what kind of elements are there.DooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:20 pm OK. To review:
1. Craving for good reputation, fame, honor, etc, must be a form of becoming.
Therefore, the new questions are:
1. Is attachment to money & housing, which makes a person feel secure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to forms visible by the eye?
2. Is attachment to fame & reputation, which makes an ego feel pleasure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to pleasant sounds heard by the eyes, such as compliments and no criticism?
The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
I don't know. It would seem they are in the sensual realm. They are likeable sense objects so, it seems so. Though I can't imagine attachment to something in "the luminuous form" or in the "formless" realms. Don't now what kind of elements are there.DooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:20 pm OK. To review:
1. Craving for good reputation, fame, honor, etc, must be a form of becoming.
Therefore, the new questions are:
1. Is attachment to money & housing, which makes a person feel secure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to forms visible by the eye?
2. Is attachment to fame & reputation, which makes an ego feel pleasure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to pleasant sounds heard by the eyes, such as compliments and no criticism?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Hi,
This is a forum dedicated to the Theravada Buddhist doctrine. Postmodern DIY Buddhism is best discussed elsewhere.
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Sounds off-topic. Is the above confusing Russian Buddhism with Australian Buddhism?
MN 117 says:
The Abhidhamma says:There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming];
Therefore, it appears meritorious becoming, per MN 117, called "puññābhisaṅkhāro kammabhava" in the Abhidhamma, is not sensual becoming. Therefore, it must be formless becoming. Otherwise, the Buddha's teaching was deficient.Therein what is “because of attachment becoming arises”? Becoming by way of twofold division: Is action-becoming; is resultant-becoming.
Therein what is action-becoming? Activity producing good/merit (resultant), activity producing bad (resultant), activity producing unshakeable (resultant). This is called action-becoming. Also all action leading to becoming is action-becoming.
Therein what is resultant-becoming? Becoming (in the plane of) desire, becoming (in the plane of) form, becoming (in the) formless (plane), perception-becoming, non-perception-becoming, neither perception nor non-perception-becoming, single aggregate becoming, four aggregate becoming, five aggregate becoming. This is called resultant-becoming. This is called “because of attachment becoming arises”.
https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/thittila
For example, imagine self-believing you are an expert on Dhamma because you take refuge in Western dictionaries. Then when someone asks you a question about language, you get angry at the questioner & self-righteous, believing you are the Buddha; even though you were born (paccājāyanti) in a Communist country (in the borderlands, among strange barbarian tribes). This is obviously not "sensual becoming". Therefore, it must be a form of "arupa bhava".
The word "arupa" appears not exclusively about arupa spheres, as follows:
Incorporeal mind, far-traveler, lone-wanderer:
Arūpa dūraṅgama ekacāri,
I won’t do your bidding any more.
Na te karissaṁ vacanaṁ idānihaṁ;
Sensual pleasures are suffering, painful and very dangerous;
Dukkhā hi kāmā kaṭukā mahabbhayā,
I’ll wander with my mind focused only on quenching.
Nibbānamevābhimano carissaṁ.
https://suttacentral.net/thag19.1/en/sujato
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:32 pm, edited 7 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
No. The asava of sensuality leads to sensual becoming. The asava of becoming leads to becoming. All are mental states.
Jati appears to not mean "rebirth". Suttas were already quoted to you, such as MN 44, which says bhava is the arising of self-identification. "Jati" appears to refer to the birth of "beings" ("sattanam"). SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 appear to define "a being" ("satta") as a "view". It appears to all be mental, such as in MN 86 when the Buddha said Angulimala was "born into the noble birth".
The dictionary above is obviously wrong. Obviously bhava as rebirth cannot lead to jati as rebirth. I already informed you MN 121 says when the experience of emptiness there is no bhava but life remains. MN 38 also clearly says bhava ceases when the eyes see the form. I suggest to take refuge in the sutta rather than in Oxford University dictionaries advised by Sri Lankans when the Sangha was close to extinct in Sri Lanka.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Rupabhava and Arupabhava are the 6th & 7th samyojana. 2600 years ago yogis attaining Jhanas perhaps was a common spiritual practice in India. In both of these states, though they are wonderful, asserts that ‘self’ is real. So my guess is Buddha wanted to make sure followers don’t get stuck in these two places. As then there is no further progress can be made on the path.
Hence, I propose that these two are mental states and not external objects or status etc.
Hence, I propose that these two are mental states and not external objects or status etc.
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Okay, if you want to think so.
lol
You're quite the phenomenal character... And your "basement studies" are better, I'm guessing?
Anyway, no point in having such a discussion with someone like that.
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Its seem you are posting superstition. As for my studies, they quote the suttas, as i have done.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Sorry but dictionaries do not define Pali terms. Pali terms are defined in the suttas, such as:
AN 3.76 & 77 defining "bhava".
SN 12.2 defining "bhava" & "jati". SN 12.2 does not say "bhava" is "rebirth".
SN 23.2 defining "satta", which is the core term in the definition of "jati" & "marana" in SN 12.2.
I am not redefining words. It is the Pali dictionaries that are redefining words.
I made numerous sutta replies to you, which you appeared to ignore.
Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
I already suggested to you, if bhava means "rebirth" then it appears illogical for the Buddha to say "rebirth" ("bhava") is the condition for "rebirth" ("jati"). But, yes, the dictionaries are wrong, imo.
Best to stop the identitarian personality-view focus and, instead, examine the evidence.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Bhava is not "rebirth"—bhava is "becoming," the process leading to rebirth, or "existence," existing, "life."
Exactly like in the PTS dictionary, and for every credible Pāḷi translation/scholar:
Rebirth—exactly as in Dependent Origination/paṭiccasamuppāda—is jāti.PTS dictionary wrote:Bhava [cp. Sk. bhava, as philosophical term late, but as N. of a deity Vedic; of bhū, see bhavati] []"becoming," (form of) re-birth, (state of) existence, a "life."
Maybe it's your interpretation of them that is incorrect?
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form; with name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called dependent origination.
—Paṭiccasamuppādasutta, SN 12.1 (translation, Bhikkhu Bodhi)“Katamo ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo? Avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā; saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ; viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ; nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ; saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso; phassapaccayā vedanā; vedanāpaccayā taṇhā; taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṁ; upādānapaccayā bhavo; bhavapaccayā jāti; jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo.
Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"
Forget about ajahn chah or buddhadasa .
I do respect them though . Forget about commentaries also .
Bhava is not defilement . Bhavasava is defilement . Bhava is describing as a process of "come-about" into a state directed by the force of kamma . Bhava is not a defilement , craving and attachment are defilements .
Now referring back to earlier your saying , rupa is material objects (such as money & houses) and arupa is immaterial objects (such as fame, honor, reputation) !
Now according to your belief , hypothesis and post-mortem , whichever best served ,
Fame , honor, reputation are more peaceful than the money & houses ?!
Those beings who reach the form realm (money & houses)
And those established in the formless,(fame, honor, reputation) ,
how are they able going to develop Noble Eight Fold Path ?!
And how is it possible a person by not getting stuck in fame, honor, reputation are able to leave Death far behind them ?!
best regards
Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realm, and cessation is more peaceful than the formless.
Those beings who reach the form realm
And those established in the formless,
If they do not know cessation
Come back to renewal of being
Those who fully understand form
Without getting stuck in the formless
Are released into cessation
And leave Death far behind them.
No bashing No gossiping