monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

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confusedlayman
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monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

Post by confusedlayman »

I read online that it is shameful for monk to be reborn in gandhavara music realm as celestial musicians. is it true? what about layman ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
form
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Re: monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

Post by form »

Where are these creatures that play music?
Ontheway
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Re: monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

Post by Ontheway »

Buddha did not specifically said that.

But there was an incident where a laywoman supporting a group of bhikkhus during Buddha's time.

It seems the generous lady was always eagerly supporting the group of monks on almsfood etc. The monks are living well and practice with ease.
Then, the laywoman, having learned a meditation subject, capable of attaining Jhana etc.

After death, the laywoman reborn in higher heaven as a powerful and glorious Deva while the monks reborn as Gandhabba musician devas. The Deva (laywoman as in previous life) wanted to know the fate of those monks she served and therefore survey the Deva Lokas. The Deva found out that the monks were reborn as musician deities (sing and dance for other Devas) and feel pity to them. The Deva, descended from the higher Heaven, to the lower realm where the groups of musician devas (monks in previous life), trying to remind them. The Deva told those musician deities about their previous lives, and reprimand them should be ashamed for such low rebirth (in Deva realms) and should strive on. Those musician deities (previous life were monks), after being alerted by the Deva and recovered the memory of immediate past lives, remembering the meditation methods, on that very spot they meditate. After which some of the musician deities "Cuti" from the low realm, and reborn immediately in Brahma world.

Above is just a synopsis of the story, I think the full version is in Dhammapada.

Personally, I think reborn as musician deities wasn't a good one, too much disturbances, vanity, entertainment and duties. If can choose, Tusita Heaven would be a better option.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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sakyan
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Re: monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

Post by sakyan »

confusedlayman wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:08 am I read online that it is shameful for monk to be reborn in gandhavara music realm as celestial musicians. is it true? what about layman ?
The appropriate goal for monks is to attain arhataphala in the present life.

If arhataphala is not possible one should aim for either anagami, sakadagami or a Sotapanna.

If even these are not possible than one should direct one's mind to rebirth in favorable realm like Tusita where one is able to learn from Ven Maitreya and other dhamma following gods.

Heavens are very alluring, There is a story about 3 monks, where they decided to take birth in Tusita heaven and learn dhamma from the Bodhisattva himself and also inform about their rebirth if anyone passes away earlier. The 2 monks took birth in the Tusita and as soon as they saw heavenly maidens who were so beautiful and alluring that they forgot about the dhamma, Bodhisattva and the promise. Only the last one was said to have be born in the inner court where Maitreya Bodhisattva was teaching the dhamma.

Also the rulers of heaven of 33, Saka and the lord of Suyama heaven are said to be Sotapanna, But they too get lost in heavenly pleasures. So it's best to have a Rebirth where we can continue dhamma practice.

We have the Mahayana sutta name Limits of life on read.84000.co where Heavens till Suyama deva realm and other lower realms are described in great detail.
TRobinson465
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Re: monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

Post by TRobinson465 »

I heard gandhavara musicians is less appealing of a rebirth than typical devas. So that would make sense to me. Like naga devas, yakka devas, and garuda devas, gandhavara devas are a "lesser" form of deva compared to full devas.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
TRobinson465
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Re: monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

Post by TRobinson465 »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:28 pm Buddha did not specifically said that.

But there was an incident where a laywoman supporting a group of bhikkhus during Buddha's time.

It seems the generous lady was always eagerly supporting the group of monks on almsfood etc. The monks are living well and practice with ease.
Then, the laywoman, having learned a meditation subject, capable of attaining Jhana etc.

After death, the laywoman reborn in higher heaven as a powerful and glorious Deva while the monks reborn as Gandhabba musician devas. The Deva (laywoman as in previous life) wanted to know the fate of those monks she served and therefore survey the Deva Lokas. The Deva found out that the monks were reborn as musician deities (sing and dance for other Devas) and feel pity to them. The Deva, descended from the higher Heaven, to the lower realm where the groups of musician devas (monks in previous life), trying to remind them. The Deva told those musician deities about their previous lives, and reprimand them should be ashamed for such low rebirth (in Deva realms) and should strive on. Those musician deities (previous life were monks), after being alerted by the Deva and recovered the memory of immediate past lives, remembering the meditation methods, on that very spot they meditate. After which some of the musician deities "Cuti" from the low realm, and reborn immediately in Brahma world.

Above is just a synopsis of the story, I think the full version is in Dhammapada.
This sounds interesting, if anyone has a link to the full story plz share.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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confusedlayman
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Re: monks reborn is gandhavara musicians realms to be avoided

Post by confusedlayman »

TRobinson465 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:32 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:28 pm Buddha did not specifically said that.

But there was an incident where a laywoman supporting a group of bhikkhus during Buddha's time.

It seems the generous lady was always eagerly supporting the group of monks on almsfood etc. The monks are living well and practice with ease.
Then, the laywoman, having learned a meditation subject, capable of attaining Jhana etc.

After death, the laywoman reborn in higher heaven as a powerful and glorious Deva while the monks reborn as Gandhabba musician devas. The Deva (laywoman as in previous life) wanted to know the fate of those monks she served and therefore survey the Deva Lokas. The Deva found out that the monks were reborn as musician deities (sing and dance for other Devas) and feel pity to them. The Deva, descended from the higher Heaven, to the lower realm where the groups of musician devas (monks in previous life), trying to remind them. The Deva told those musician deities about their previous lives, and reprimand them should be ashamed for such low rebirth (in Deva realms) and should strive on. Those musician deities (previous life were monks), after being alerted by the Deva and recovered the memory of immediate past lives, remembering the meditation methods, on that very spot they meditate. After which some of the musician deities "Cuti" from the low realm, and reborn immediately in Brahma world.

Above is just a synopsis of the story, I think the full version is in Dhammapada.
This sounds interesting, if anyone has a link to the full story plz share.
deva gopaka
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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