10 kind of wives

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Gwi
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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by Gwi »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:01 am
Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:19 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:36 am

I missed out no underage sex, that's covered by protection by parents, guardians etc. I think no rape is covered under protection by law, and by herself consent.

In the case of Eastern societies, indeed, the girl maybe protected by parents even well into her thirties. In most Western societies (or at least my impression of it), I see the culture of parents letting their kids free to do what they want after 18 or 21. In that case, the girl is not really considered under protection of parents.

As for parents wanting to make sure that their kids get good spouses, it didn't state specifically that it needs to exclude sex before marriage, say between fiances. Nowadays, it's mainly practised via the kids bringing their potential spouse to meet the parents. It seems it's up to the individual families to decide if they wish to grant such permission of pre-marital sex. However, I agree that there's always a danger for pre-marital sex to involve the girl being dumped by the guy after an unwanted pregnancy, and the family of the girl has to bear the burden of helping the girl becoming a single mother. In that sense, I think it's justified for family members to judge the spouse and object if they find that the partner seems uncommitted and yet they wish to have sex.

Anyway, it's quite open to interpretation, I think Eastern societies standards may lean towards very conservative, Western ones may lean towards liberal sexual attitudes. There's room for interpretation for both sides. Heavily depends on the society they are in. Since this is the internet, it's good to be aware of the mixture of many different cultural influences, and to be clear on what's the text, how to interpret it and what's our cultural assumptions, background.

pre-marital *** = breaking the third precept.

Not adultery, but fornication.
https://sasanarakkha.org/2010/11/01/imp ... -virtuous/

You can download and read the 3rd precept section. I will quote some of it below:
This precept can be broken by oneself
only—no one can break it for another. It is
broken when the following four conditions
are all present:
1. The forbidden person.
2. Intention to have sexual intercourse
with the person.
The Third Precept: Refraining from sexual misconduct 41
3. Effort made in committing the sexual
act.
4. Consent to the sexual act.
The forbidden person can only refer to
the opposite sex and not to the same sex. For
males this person may be:
1. A female who is under protection,
such one who is unmarried, engaged
or protected by [law with threat of]
penalty.
2. A female who is married to or is
cohabiting with another male,
including a prostitute whose services
are currently contracted to another
client.
In the case of females, three categories of
males are forbidden:
1. For a married or cohabiting female,
any male other than her husband or
cohabitant respectively.
2. For an engaged female, any male
other than the one she is engaged to.
42 The Importance of Being Morally Virtuous
3. For a female protected by [law with
threat of] penalty, any male prohibited by the law.
In our modern context, “a female protected by [law with threat of] penalty” would
refer to any female decreed by law to be a forbidden sexual partner, e.g. a female convict, a
close female relative, someone under the age
of consent.
Details from the Pāli scriptures are shown
in Appendix C. Lists A and B are the categories of females forbidden to males. The list for
females is a bit more complicated: it shows
the categories of males forbidden to specific
categories of females
There's no explicit mention that sex is only allowed in marriage, between the couple. Read on and you'll find cases which totally makes you cringe, yet doesn't break the precept.
Vinayå volume 1:

Under the tutelage of mother and father:
Supervised, guarded, under power,
under the control of mother and father.





Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


pre-marital xxx (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

pre-marital xxx n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE




Read Dhammapadå 24,
Kumbhaghosakå's story:

The Buddhå said: "... However, the act of
stealing and crime others
(the third precept in the story [pre-marital xxx])
will only bring DUKKHÅ."
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:53 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:01 am
Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:19 am


pre-marital *** = breaking the third precept.

Not adultery, but fornication.
https://sasanarakkha.org/2010/11/01/imp ... -virtuous/

You can download and read the 3rd precept section. I will quote some of it below:
This precept can be broken by oneself
only—no one can break it for another. It is
broken when the following four conditions
are all present:
1. The forbidden person.
2. Intention to have sexual intercourse
with the person.
The Third Precept: Refraining from sexual misconduct 41
3. Effort made in committing the sexual
act.
4. Consent to the sexual act.
The forbidden person can only refer to
the opposite sex and not to the same sex. For
males this person may be:
1. A female who is under protection,
such one who is unmarried, engaged
or protected by [law with threat of]
penalty.
2. A female who is married to or is
cohabiting with another male,
including a prostitute whose services
are currently contracted to another
client.
In the case of females, three categories of
males are forbidden:
1. For a married or cohabiting female,
any male other than her husband or
cohabitant respectively.
2. For an engaged female, any male
other than the one she is engaged to.
42 The Importance of Being Morally Virtuous
3. For a female protected by [law with
threat of] penalty, any male prohibited by the law.
In our modern context, “a female protected by [law with threat of] penalty” would
refer to any female decreed by law to be a forbidden sexual partner, e.g. a female convict, a
close female relative, someone under the age
of consent.
Details from the Pāli scriptures are shown
in Appendix C. Lists A and B are the categories of females forbidden to males. The list for
females is a bit more complicated: it shows
the categories of males forbidden to specific
categories of females
There's no explicit mention that sex is only allowed in marriage, between the couple. Read on and you'll find cases which totally makes you cringe, yet doesn't break the precept.
Vinayå volume 1:

Under the tutelage of mother and father:
Supervised, guarded, under power,
under the control of mother and father.





Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


pre-marital xxx (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

pre-marital xxx n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE




Read Dhammapadå 24,
Kumbhaghosakå's story:

The Buddhå said: "... However, the act of
stealing and crime others
(the third precept in the story [pre-marital xxx])
will only bring DUKKHÅ."
Your first citation is too vague, I dunno what it refers to. Here I copy and past Dp 24 from the book: The Dhammapada (Path of the Buddha's Teaching-Daw Mya Tin)
Verse 24
II. (2) KumbhaghosakaseÔÔhi Vatthu The Story of Kumbhaghosaka, the Banker
24.UÔÔhÈnavato satÊmato, sucikammassa nisammakÈrino; SaÒÒatassa dhammajÊvino, appamattassa yaso bhivaÉÉhati.

While residing at the VeÄuvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (24) of this book, with reference to Kumbhaghosaka, the banker.
At one time, a plague epidemic broke out in the city of RÈjagaha. In the house of the city banker, the servants died on account of this disease; the banker and his wife were also attacked by the same. When they were both down with the disease they told their young son Kumbhaghosaka to leave them and flee from the house and to return only after a long time. They also told him that at such and such a place they had buried a treasure worth forty crores. The son left the city and stayed in a forest for twelve years and then came back to the city.

By that time, he was quite a grown up youth and nobody in the city recognized him. He went to the place where the treasure was hidden and found it was quite intact. But he reasoned and realized that there was no one who could identify him and that if he were to unearth the buried treasure and make use of it people might think a young poor man had accidentally come upon buried treasure and they might report it to the king. In that case, his property would be confiscated and he himself might be manhandled or put in captivity. So he concluded it was not yet time to unearth the treasure and that mean while he must find works for his living. Dressed in old clothes Kumbhaghosaka looked for work. He was given the work of waking up and rousing the people to get up early in the morning and of going round announcing that it was time to prepare food, time to fetch carts and yoke the bullocks, etc.

One morning, King BimbisarÈ heard him. The king who was a keen judge of voices commented, “This is the voice of a man of great wealth. “A maid, hearing the king’s remark, sent someone to investigate. He reported that the youth was only a hireling of the labourers. In spite of this report the king repeated the same remark on two subsequent days. Again, enquires were made but with the same result. The maid thought that this was very strange, so she asked the king to give her permission to go and personally investigate.

Disguised as rustics, the maid and her daughter set out to the place of the labourers. Saying that they were travellers, they asked for shelter and were given accommodation in the house of Kumbhaghosaka just for one night. However, they managed to prolong their stay there. During that period, twice the king proclaimed that a certain ceremony must be performed in the locality of the labourers, and that every household must make contributions. Kumbhaghosaka had no ready cash for such an occasion. So he was forced to get some coins (KahÈpaÓas) from his treasure. As these coins were handed over to the maid, she substituted them with her money and sent the coins to the king. After sometimes, she sent a message to the king asking him to send some men and summon Kumbhaghosaka to the court. Kumbhaghosaka, very reluctantly, went along with the men. The maid and her daughter also went to the palace, ahead of them.

At the palace, the king told Kumbhaghosaka to speak out the truth and gave him assurance that he could not be harmed on this account. Kumbhaghosaka then admitted that those KahÈpaÓas were his and also that he was the son of the city banker of RÈjagaha, who died in the plague epidemic twelve years ago. He further revealed the place where the treasure was hidden. Subsequently, all the buried treasure was brought to the palace; the king made him a banker and gave his daughter in marriage to him.

Afterwards, taking Kumbhaghosaka along with him, the king went to the Buddha at the VeÄuvana monastery and told him how the youth, though rich, was earning his living as hireling of the labourers, and how he had appointed the youth a banker.

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 24.If a person is energetic, mindful, pure in his thought, word and deed, and if he does everything with care and consideration, restrained his senses, earns his living ac- cording to the Law (Dhamma) and is not unneedful, then, the fame and fortune of that mindful person steadily in- crease.
At the end of discourse, Kumbhaghosaka attained SotÈpatti Fruition.

Again no explicit mention of sex outside of marriage is breaking the 3rd precept. The main story isn't even about sex. There's a possibility that either a teacher who taught you or you yourself had inserted conservative values into the 3rd precept.
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DooDoot
Posts: 12032
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:01 am You can download and read the 3rd precept section.
Sorry but the above has been posted on this forum many times.

The 3rd precept does not exist in isolation. As I already advised you, the 3rd precept exists together with the following teachings:
DN 31 wrote:In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iii) they train them for a profession,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage,
(v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nara.html
MN 61 wrote:‘This act with the body that I want to do leads to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both. It’s unskillful, with suffering as its outcome and result.’ To the best of your ability, Rāhula, you should not do such a deed.

https://suttacentral.net/mn61/en/sujato
AN 2.9 wrote:Bhikkhus, these two bright principles protect the world. What are the two? Shame and fear of wrongdoing. If, bhikkhus, these two bright principles did not protect the world.. the world would have fallen into promiscuity, as with goats, sheep, chickens, pigs, dogs, and jackals. :pig:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
The Commentary is clear. It says:
In the case where the father is gone, or the mother provides support such as food and clothing, the mother guards [her] thinking "I will give [her] to a good family when she comes of age." This is called "protected by the mother". By the same means "protected by the father", etc., should be understood.

https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/a/1371/8157
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Gwi
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by Gwi »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:35 am
Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:53 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:01 am

https://sasanarakkha.org/2010/11/01/imp ... -virtuous/

You can download and read the 3rd precept section. I will quote some of it below:



There's no explicit mention that sex is only allowed in marriage, between the couple. Read on and you'll find cases which totally makes you cringe, yet doesn't break the precept.
Vinayå volume 1:

Under the tutelage of mother and father:
Supervised, guarded, under power,
under the control of mother and father.





Kāmesumicchācārå = wrong conduct in sensual pleasures


pre-marital xxx (harlotry) = violate
Prostitutes (harlotry) = violate

Adultery = violate (big problem)
Rape (ravisment) = violate (big problem)

pre-marital xxx n prostitutes = FORNICATION = VIOLATE




Read Dhammapadå 24,
Kumbhaghosakå's story:

The Buddhå said: "... However, the act of
stealing and crime others
(the third precept in the story [pre-marital xxx])
will only bring DUKKHÅ."
Your first citation is too vague, I dunno what it refers to. Here I copy and past Dp 24 from the book: The Dhammapada (Path of the Buddha's Teaching-Daw Mya Tin)
Verse 24
II. (2) KumbhaghosakaseÔÔhi Vatthu The Story of Kumbhaghosaka, the Banker
24.UÔÔhÈnavato satÊmato, sucikammassa nisammakÈrino; SaÒÒatassa dhammajÊvino, appamattassa yaso bhivaÉÉhati.

While residing at the VeÄuvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (24) of this book, with reference to Kumbhaghosaka, the banker.
At one time, a plague epidemic broke out in the city of RÈjagaha. In the house of the city banker, the servants died on account of this disease; the banker and his wife were also attacked by the same. When they were both down with the disease they told their young son Kumbhaghosaka to leave them and flee from the house and to return only after a long time. They also told him that at such and such a place they had buried a treasure worth forty crores. The son left the city and stayed in a forest for twelve years and then came back to the city.

By that time, he was quite a grown up youth and nobody in the city recognized him. He went to the place where the treasure was hidden and found it was quite intact. But he reasoned and realized that there was no one who could identify him and that if he were to unearth the buried treasure and make use of it people might think a young poor man had accidentally come upon buried treasure and they might report it to the king. In that case, his property would be confiscated and he himself might be manhandled or put in captivity. So he concluded it was not yet time to unearth the treasure and that mean while he must find works for his living. Dressed in old clothes Kumbhaghosaka looked for work. He was given the work of waking up and rousing the people to get up early in the morning and of going round announcing that it was time to prepare food, time to fetch carts and yoke the bullocks, etc.

One morning, King BimbisarÈ heard him. The king who was a keen judge of voices commented, “This is the voice of a man of great wealth. “A maid, hearing the king’s remark, sent someone to investigate. He reported that the youth was only a hireling of the labourers. In spite of this report the king repeated the same remark on two subsequent days. Again, enquires were made but with the same result. The maid thought that this was very strange, so she asked the king to give her permission to go and personally investigate.

Disguised as rustics, the maid and her daughter set out to the place of the labourers. Saying that they were travellers, they asked for shelter and were given accommodation in the house of Kumbhaghosaka just for one night. However, they managed to prolong their stay there. During that period, twice the king proclaimed that a certain ceremony must be performed in the locality of the labourers, and that every household must make contributions. Kumbhaghosaka had no ready cash for such an occasion. So he was forced to get some coins (KahÈpaÓas) from his treasure. As these coins were handed over to the maid, she substituted them with her money and sent the coins to the king. After sometimes, she sent a message to the king asking him to send some men and summon Kumbhaghosaka to the court. Kumbhaghosaka, very reluctantly, went along with the men. The maid and her daughter also went to the palace, ahead of them.

At the palace, the king told Kumbhaghosaka to speak out the truth and gave him assurance that he could not be harmed on this account. Kumbhaghosaka then admitted that those KahÈpaÓas were his and also that he was the son of the city banker of RÈjagaha, who died in the plague epidemic twelve years ago. He further revealed the place where the treasure was hidden. Subsequently, all the buried treasure was brought to the palace; the king made him a banker and gave his daughter in marriage to him.

Afterwards, taking Kumbhaghosaka along with him, the king went to the Buddha at the VeÄuvana monastery and told him how the youth, though rich, was earning his living as hireling of the labourers, and how he had appointed the youth a banker.

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 24.If a person is energetic, mindful, pure in his thought, word and deed, and if he does everything with care and consideration, restrained his senses, earns his living ac- cording to the Law (Dhamma) and is not unneedful, then, the fame and fortune of that mindful person steadily in- crease.
At the end of discourse, Kumbhaghosaka attained SotÈpatti Fruition.

Again no explicit mention of sex outside of marriage is breaking the 3rd precept. The main story isn't even about sex. There's a possibility that either a teacher who taught you or you yourself had inserted conservative values into the 3rd precept.

So her daughter is lying on one side ...


Maka putrinya berbaring di satu sisi tempat tidur dan berkata kepada Kumbhaghosaka, “Tuan, tidurlah di sini.” Ibunya juga berkata kepada Kumbhaghosaka, “Tuanku tersayang, pergilah berbaring bersama putriku.” Kemudian Kumbhaghosaka berbaring di ranjang yang sama dengan gadis itu dan malam itu juga, ia
melakukan sesuatu terhadapnya. Gadis itu menangis. Ibunya
bertanya kepadanya, “Putriku tersayang, mengapa kamu
menangis?” “Ibu, kejadiannya seperti demikian.” “Baiklah, apa
yang harus dilakukan? Kamu harus mempunyai seorang suami,
dan Kumbhaghosaka juga harus mempersunting seorang istri.”
Maka ia menjadikan Kumbhaghosaka sebagai menantunya, dan
Kumbhaghosaka pun hidup bersama dengan putrinya.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
DiamondNgXZ
Posts: 390
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:40 am

Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:14 am
So her daughter is lying on one side ...


Maka putrinya berbaring di satu sisi tempat tidur dan berkata kepada Kumbhaghosaka, “Tuan, tidurlah di sini.” Ibunya juga berkata kepada Kumbhaghosaka, “Tuanku tersayang, pergilah berbaring bersama putriku.” Kemudian Kumbhaghosaka berbaring di ranjang yang sama dengan gadis itu dan malam itu juga, ia
melakukan sesuatu terhadapnya. Gadis itu menangis. Ibunya
bertanya kepadanya, “Putriku tersayang, mengapa kamu
menangis?” “Ibu, kejadiannya seperti demikian.” “Baiklah, apa
yang harus dilakukan? Kamu harus mempunyai seorang suami,
dan Kumbhaghosaka juga harus mempersunting seorang istri.”
Maka ia menjadikan Kumbhaghosaka sebagai menantunya, dan
Kumbhaghosaka pun hidup bersama dengan putrinya.
Interesting, where is this from? Commentary or sub commentary?

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that Kumbhaghosaka had a one night stand with the daughter, then he took responsibility by marrying her. That's a responsible view.

One should also be careful not to misapply such logic to today's world. There are women out there who wants casual sex just as it is, no commitments. (Side case) And it's also ridiculous to ask women to marry men who raped her. On the guy's point of view, if the understanding before going into sex is to have casual sex, non committed sex, protected sex, then it's ridiculous for the woman to ask the guy to marry her unless accidental pregnancy happened.

It all depends on what the women/ guy wants, respecting people's wishes is of paramount importance in the ethics of sex nowadays.

It's curious too, if your claim that sexual misconduct is sex before marriage, then did the Buddha scold Kumbhaghosaka for having one night stand when he is unmarried? I assume there's more there you haven't cited.
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DooDoot
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:27 am There are women out there who wants casual sex just as it is, no commitments.
Dhamma is about non-harming. Casual sex leads to hungry ghost, animal & hell birth.

There are also women out there who wants to drugs due to addiction to drugs; just like women who use sex to escape from their terrifying suffering of loneliness & failed relationships.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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Gwi
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Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:33 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by Gwi »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:27 am
Gwi wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:14 am
So her daughter is lying on one side ...


Maka putrinya berbaring di satu sisi tempat tidur dan berkata kepada Kumbhaghosaka, “Tuan, tidurlah di sini.” Ibunya juga berkata kepada Kumbhaghosaka, “Tuanku tersayang, pergilah berbaring bersama putriku.” Kemudian Kumbhaghosaka berbaring di ranjang yang sama dengan gadis itu dan malam itu juga, ia
melakukan sesuatu terhadapnya. Gadis itu menangis. Ibunya
bertanya kepadanya, “Putriku tersayang, mengapa kamu
menangis?” “Ibu, kejadiannya seperti demikian.” “Baiklah, apa
yang harus dilakukan? Kamu harus mempunyai seorang suami,
dan Kumbhaghosaka juga harus mempersunting seorang istri.”
Maka ia menjadikan Kumbhaghosaka sebagai menantunya, dan
Kumbhaghosaka pun hidup bersama dengan putrinya.
Interesting, where is this from? Commentary or sub commentary?

Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that Kumbhaghosaka had a one night stand with the daughter, then he took responsibility by marrying her. That's a responsible view.

One should also be careful not to misapply such logic to today's world. There are women out there who wants casual sex just as it is, no commitments. (Side case) And it's also ridiculous to ask women to marry men who raped her. On the guy's point of view, if the understanding before going into sex is to have casual sex, non committed sex, protected sex, then it's ridiculous for the woman to ask the guy to marry her unless accidental pregnancy happened.

It all depends on what the women/ guy wants, respecting people's wishes is of paramount importance in the ethics of sex nowadays.

It's curious too, if your claim that sexual misconduct is sex before marriage, then did the Buddha scold Kumbhaghosaka for having one night stand when he is unmarried? I assume there's more there you haven't cited.

"... Kemudian Kumbhaghosaka berbaring di ranjang (bed)
yang sama dengan gadis itu dan malam itu juga, ia
melakukan sesuatu (something) terhadapnya.
Gadis itu menangis (cry) ...."


Pre-marital relations are a violation of precepts.
However, they have become husband and wife (legitimate)
from dirty to pure.

Bhikkhus who break Pātimokkhā can be purified.
A violation is a violation.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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DooDoot
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:27 am There are women out there who wants casual sex just as it is, no commitments.
The suttas say:
corrupted too with prostitutes—
that’s the way to disaster’s woe.

https://suttacentral.net/snp1.6/en/mills
So what is the difference between a man who visits prostitutes regularly and a women who goes to nightclubs and picks up men for sex regularly? :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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DooDoot
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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DooDoot »

Sorry but a Malaysian blogger monk is not the Buddha. The Buddha said the following to monks:
This was said by the Blessed One who knows & sees, worthy and rightly self-awakened: 'Come now, monks: with regard to women who are old enough to be your mother, establish the attitude you would have toward your mother. With regard to women who are old enough to be your sister, establish the attitude you'd have toward a sister. With regard to women who are young enough to be your daughter, establish the attitude you'd have toward a daughter.' This is one reason, this is one cause, great king, why young monks — black-haired, endowed with the blessings of youth in the first stage of life — without having played with sensual pleasures nevertheless follow the lifelong chaste life, perfect & pure, and make it last their entire lives."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Sorry but as a novice monk your posts give the impression to me of sexually objectifying women & viewing women as sex objects. For me, this attitude is contrary to the training of a Buddhist monk and I personally cannot regard any individual as a "bhikkhu" who cannot "see the danger" of heedless sex. The word "bhikkhu" means "one who sees the danger". :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:35 am
inserted conservative values into the 3rd precept.
No. It is you that appear to be inserting liberal values into the 3rd precept. The entire precept is about "protection" (from harm & birth into lower realms). The Buddha said in MN 3: "be heirs to my Dhamma and not to material things". It is wrong for Malaysian monks to make Buddhism look more liberal than (Malaysian) Islam so to attract & covert Malaysian followers. It is wrong for Muslims to look down upon Buddhism. In the earliest Muslim writings about Buddhism in Persia the Muslims praised Buddhists for "being opposed to Satan/Mara". Good night. :|
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:48 amSo what is the difference between a man who visits prostitutes regularly and a women who goes to nightclubs and picks up men for sex regularly?
Livelihood. Also the men "picked up" may be very different than the prostitute's clients. There are tons of differences between a woman who likes to have sex and a prostitute, just as there are tons of differences between a man who likes to have sex and a prostitute. Women aren't prostitutes for enjoying sex with multiple partners.

:rolleye:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:38 pm Women aren't prostitutes for enjoying sex with multiple partners.

:rolleye:
Irrelevant. The topic is casual sex with multiple partners; generally called “promiscuity”. The Buddha compared promiscuity to the sexual behaviour of certain animals (already quoted) and said in leads to downfall (lower realm; already quoted). Sex is another sexual pleasure and like any sexual pleasure is fraught with dangers, anxiety & dukkha, as the Buddha taught in many sutras.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:51 am Sorry but as a novice monk your posts give the impression to me of sexually objectifying women & viewing women as sex objects. For me, this attitude is contrary to the training of a Buddhist monk and I personally cannot regard any individual as a "bhikkhu" who cannot "see the danger" of heedless sex. The word "bhikkhu" means "one who sees the danger". :|
The quote from the Buddha was for monks, we were discussing 3rd precept for lay people. Ok then, I can't comment further. Let other lay people debate this.
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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by DooDoot »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:07 pm The quote from the Buddha was for monks, we were discussing 3rd precept for lay people. Ok then, I can't comment further. Let other lay people debate this.
Sorry but you appear to be promoting lust, heedlessness & (as you posted) liberalism. The Buddha said there are many dangers in sensual pleasures. I suggest you have a good talk to some senior monks rather than promote Western (cultural marxist) Liberalism as a novice monk. I suggest to read Dhammapada 307 & 308.

If I have the view there is no harm in women having casual sex with me then it will be very difficult for me to overcome the hindrance of sensual desire. When I gave up heedless sex, it wasn't because I did not enjoy it. I gave it up because i saw heedless uncommitted sex harmed women; including the hungry ghost women who search for casual sex because their past relationships always failed and they lost their natural bonding instinct.

Since i stopped sexually objectifying women, I have been sexual propositioned countless times by sexy women. When this first occurred, i had 32 staff, most of them female; plus 50% of my customers were women. While I am not saying i was propositioned, recently, two very good looking ladies in their 20s asked me if i was interested in travelling with them. I met these two young nymphs at the beach and taught these two young nymphs in bikinis how to body surf. I don't actually have any shortcoming talking to ladies. As I suggested, there appears little evidence of real life experience in your posts. As for the members of this forum, based on past survey, the majority appear to watch porn or are pandaka (male homosexual). I doubt most pandaka can understand the sexual responsibilities of men towards women, which the Dhamma says are to be "protected" from harm.
“And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, lovingkindness and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

“‘I will protect myself,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. ‘I will protect others,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. Protecting oneself, bhikkhus, one protects others; protecting others, one protects oneself.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.19/en/bodhi
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: 10 kind of wives

Post by Gwi »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:45 am
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:07 pm The quote from the Buddha was for monks, we were discussing 3rd precept for lay people. Ok then, I can't comment further. Let other lay people debate this.
Sorry but you appear to be promoting lust, heedlessness & (as you posted) liberalism. The Buddha said there are many dangers in sensual pleasures. I suggest you have a good talk to some senior monks rather than promote Western (cultural marxist) Liberalism as a novice monk. I suggest to read Dhammapada 307 & 308.

If I have the view there is no harm in women having casual sex with me then it will be very difficult for me to overcome the hindrance of sensual desire. When I gave up heedless sex, it wasn't because I did not enjoy it. I gave it up because i saw heedless uncommitted sex harmed women; including the hungry ghost women who search for casual sex because their past relationships always failed and they lost their natural bonding instinct.

Since i stopped sexually objectifying women, I have been sexual propositioned countless times by sexy women. When this first occurred, i had 32 staff, most of them female; plus 50% of my customers were women. While I am not saying i was propositioned, recently, two very good looking ladies in their 20s asked me if i was interested in travelling with them. I met these two young nymphs at the beach and taught these two young nymphs in bikinis how to body surf. I don't actually have any shortcoming talking to ladies. As I suggested, there appears little evidence of real life experience in your posts. As for the members of this forum, based on past survey, the majority appear to watch porn or are pandaka (male homosexual). I doubt most pandaka can understand the sexual responsibilities of men towards women, which the Dhamma says are to be "protected" from harm.
“And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, lovingkindness and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

“‘I will protect myself,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. ‘I will protect others,’ bhikkhus: thus should the establishments of mindfulness be practised. Protecting oneself, bhikkhus, one protects others; protecting others, one protects oneself.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.19/en/bodhi
Homo not pandakå,
Pandakå not homo.

It is different.

Pandakå = congenital

Homo = deviation (due to wrong view) ---> Dīgha Aṭṭhakathā
(All religion say deviation too)

Homo can be normal (but difficult);
Pandakå = no




* please dunt say Dīgha Aṭṭhakathā fake,
That is right not fake
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
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