Is Tathagata a concept ?

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asahi
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Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by asahi »

Is it ?

:thanks:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:34 pmYes.
Tathagata is not "concept" according to sutta . Tathagata is not form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness .


:thinking:



Anurādhasutta
SN 44.2

“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you regard the Realized One as possessing form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?”

“No, sir.”

“What do you think, Anurādha? Do you regard the Realized One as one who is without form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness?”

“No, sir.”

“In that case, Anurādha, since you don’t acknowledge the Realized One as a genuine fact in the present life, is it appropriate to declare: ‘Reverends, when a Realized One is describing a Realized One—a supreme person, highest of people, who has reached the highest point—they describe them other than these four ways: After death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist’?”

“No, sir.”
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Gwi
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Gwi »

asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:25 pm Is it ?

:thanks:
Tathāgatå mean GOD,
King of Dhammå (nickname),
The Ruler of 3 realms.


Definition of god: (1) a single creature at once
(2) worshiped by His people where
The (single) creature does not worship
or pray to anyone (without exception),
on the contrary His people worship Him,
and (3) His words are made into holy verses,
Become holy books (canon).


We never using "god", but Tathāgatå.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
SarathW
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by SarathW »

Conventional sens Thathagatha (Buddha) exists.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

One thus come/thus gone.

Beyond conceptual designations.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Bundokji
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Bundokji »

Concepts are context sensitive. If the meaning of Tathagata changes upon context, then it is a concept.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

asahi wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:23 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:34 pmYes.
Tathagata is not "concept" according to sutta . Tathagata is not form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness .


:thinking:



Anurādhasutta
SN 44.2

...


Unfamiliar reasoning regarding "concept" for me, imo, especially when sutta sn44.2 is in perspective.

Tathagata is a "concept" according to that very sutta .

Actually, this very sutta seems to be one of the favorites by some venerables to teach that Tathagata is a "concept".

Also, it is quite a familiar point for some that concepts are not of those five aggregates.

Hence, my answer:
  • Yes, Tathagata is a "concept".
:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
asahi
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by asahi »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:51 am
Unfamiliar reasoning regarding "concept" for me, imo, especially when sutta sn44.2 is in perspective.

Tathagata is a "concept" according to that very sutta .

Actually, this very sutta seems to be one of the favorites by some venerables to teach that Tathagata is a "concept".

Also, it is quite a familiar point for some that concepts are not of those five aggregates.

Hence, my answer:
  • Yes, Tathagata is a "concept".
The sutta says Tathagata cannot be pin-point . And Tathagata is not any part of the five aggregates which includes the "concept" where concept came from perception and thought !
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

asahi wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:03 am
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:51 am
Unfamiliar reasoning regarding "concept" for me, imo, especially when sutta sn44.2 is in perspective.

Tathagata is a "concept" according to that very sutta .

Actually, this very sutta seems to be one of the favorites by some venerables to teach that Tathagata is a "concept".

Also, it is quite a familiar point for some that concepts are not of those five aggregates.

Hence, my answer:
  • Yes, Tathagata is a "concept".
The sutta says Tathagata cannot be pin-point . And Tathagata is not any part of the five aggregates which includes the "concept" where concept came from perception and thought !

Perception & thought are phenomena (ultimate realities), subjected to anicca-lakhana. Concepts perse are epiphenomena (belonging to conventional realm), not subjected to anicca-lakhana.

Concepts can become ultimate realities (and subjected to anicca-lakhana) when they are treated as mind objects (dhamma–āyatana) for the mind base (manāyatana).

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Rambutan
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Rambutan »

Tathagatha itself is not a concept,
But there can be many ways to conceptualize tathagatha.
If someone asks, “what is tathagatha?”
all that can be offered is a concept about what it is.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

In the following, "I" is the concept, as usual. So, it is obvious that "Tathāgata" used in place of "I" is also a concept. Of course, Tathāgata, at anytime, is not Nibbana-Dhatu which on the other hand is not a concept.
  • The Buddha is quoted on numerous occasions in the Pali Canon as referring to himself as the Tathāgata instead of using the pronouns me, I or myself. This may be meant to emphasize by implication that the teaching is uttered by one who has transcended the human condition, one beyond the otherwise endless cycle of rebirth and death, i.e. beyond dukkha.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathāgata

Only some misinformed mahayanists would say Tathāgata is the same as Nibbana-Dhatu.

  • According to Paul Williams, there is also a trend in modern Thai Theravada that argues that "nirvana is indeed the true Self (Atman; Pali: atta)".[149] This dispute began when the 12th Supreme Patriarch of Thailand published a book of essays in 1939 arguing that while the conditioned world is anatta, nibbana is atta. According to Williams, this interpretation echoes the Mahayana tathāgatagarbha sutras. This position was criticized by Buddhadhasa Bhikkhu, who argued that the not-self (anatta) perspective is what makes Buddhism unique.[150] Fifty years after this dispute, the Dhammakaya Movement also began to teach that nibbana is not anatta, but the "true self" or dhammakaya.
    ...
    ...
    An alternative idea of Mahāyāna nirvana is found in the Tathāgatagarbha sūtras. The title itself means a garbha (womb, matrix, seed) containing Tathagata (Buddha). These Sutras suggest, states Paul Williams, that 'all sentient beings contain a Tathagata' as their 'essence, core or essential inner nature'.[193] The tathāgatagarbha doctrine (also called buddhadhatu, buddha-nature), at its earliest probably appeared about the later part of the 3rd century CE, and is verifiable in Chinese translations of 1st millennium CE.[193] Most scholars consider the tathāgatagarbha doctrine of an 'essential nature' in every living being is equivalent to 'Self',[note 22] and it contradicts the "no self" (or no soul, no atman, anatta) doctrines in a vast majority of Buddhist texts, leading scholars to posit that the Tathagatagarbha Sutras were written to promote Buddhism to non-Buddhists.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_(Buddhism)

These clearly indicate Tathāgata is a concept, not only from Theravada aspect but also from non-misinformed Mahayana point of view.


:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
un8-
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by un8- »

Tathagatha means "thus gone/come". It's a name to describe a phenomena.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:23 am
To say it’s a concept is to say that it’s empty. It’s a nominal existence only.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Mr. Seek
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Re: Is Tathagata a concept ?

Post by Mr. Seek »

When all phenomena are done away with it,
all means of speaking are done away with as well.

Upasiva's Questions, Snp 5.6
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