Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
sphairos
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by sphairos »

I think in T. Wen's PhD thesis "Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism" (2009) this thesis is well-defended and well-illustrated.

https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:172205
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form
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by form »

There are suttas that pointed out there are dry insight arahats. Also, there is the insights only approach all the way to arahatship. The people probably still possessed the minimum access concentration.
un8-
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by un8- »

form wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:13 pm There are suttas that pointed out there are dry insight arahats. Also, there is the insights only approach all the way to arahatship. The people probably still possessed the minimum access concentration.
No there is no such thing in the suttas. The suttas point out that a pannavimutti Arahant doesn't require the formless jhanas, they still require the first four jhanas.
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arkaprava
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by arkaprava »

If there is no need for Jhana for stream-entry, then the Buddha was a liar, since a Noble sevenfold path would also do the trick.
auto
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by auto »

a good friend is what give you the meditation subject, (but pls try understand the meaning of good friend)
visuddhimagga wrote:This is the explanatory exposition of the meditation subject referred to by the
words he should apprehend…one [meditation subject] (§28).
123. Now the words and he should apprehend are illustrated as follows. After
approaching the good friend of the kind described in the explanation of the words
then approach the good friend, the giver of a meditation subject (§28 and §57–73), the
meditator should dedicate himself to the Blessed One, the Enlightened One, or to
a teacher, and he should ask for the meditation subject with a sincere inclination
[of the heart] and sincere resolution.
..the idea is to dedicate ones person(inclination)
visuddhimagga wrote:126. When he dedicates himself to a teacher, he should say: “I relinquish this my
person to you, venerable sir.” For one who has not dedicated his person thus
becomes unresponsive to correction, hard to speak to, and unamenable to advice,
or he goes where he likes without asking the teacher.
Consequently the teacher
does not help him with either material things or the Dhamma, and he does not
train him in the cryptic books.37 Failing to get these two kinds of help, [116] he
finds no footing in the Dispensation, and he soon comes down to misconducting
himself or to the lay state. But if he has dedicated his person, he is not unresponsive
to correction, does not go about as he likes, is easy to speak to, and lives only in
dependence on the teacher. He gets the twofold help from the teacher and attains
growth, increase, and fulfilment in the Dispensation. Like the Elder Cú¿a-
Pióðapátika-Tissa’s pupils.
..
what inclination is,
visuddhimagga wrote:128. With a sincere inclination [of the heart] and sincere resolution (§ 123): the
meditator’s inclination should be sincere in the six modes beginning with nongreed.
For it is one of such sincere inclination who arrives at one of the three kinds
of enlightenment, according as it is said: “Six kinds of inclination lead to the
maturing of the enlightenment of the Bodhisattas. With the inclination to nongreed,
Bodhisattas see the fault in greed.
..
there is concentration(apprehending the sign) and the possibility to get enlightened(arhantship) on spot
visuddhimagga 110 wrote:127. Three bhikkhus came to the elder, it seems. One of them said, “Venerable sir,
I am ready to fall from a cliff the height of one hundred men, if it is said to be to
your advantage.” The second said, “Venerable sir, I am ready to grind away this
body from the heels up without remainder on a flat stone, if it is said to be to your
advantage.” The third said, “Venerable sir, I am ready to die by stopping breathing,
if it is said to be to your advantage.” Observing, “These bhikkhus are certainly
capable of progress,” the elder expounded a meditation subject to them. Following
his advice, the three attained Arahantship.

This is the benefit in self-dedication. Hence it was said above “dedicating himself
to the Blessed One, the Enlightened One, or to a teacher.”
there are too many details to post. But give a good overview about mechanics.
visuddhimagga wrote: ....
But when the meditation subject is being expounded in this way, the meditator
must apprehend the sign as he listens.

132. Apprehend the sign means that he must connect each aspect thus: “This is the
preceding clause, this is the subsequent clause, this is its meaning, this is its
intention, this is the simile.” When he listens attentively, apprehending the sign in
this way, his meditation subject is well apprehended. Then, and because of that, he
successfully attains distinction, but not otherwise. This clarifies the meaning of
the words “and he must apprehend.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

un8- wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:14 pm
form wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:13 pm There are suttas that pointed out there are dry insight arahats. Also, there is the insights only approach all the way to arahatship. The people probably still possessed the minimum access concentration.
No there is no such thing in the suttas. The suttas point out that a pannavimutti Arahant doesn't require the formless jhanas, they still require the first four jhanas.
There is a parallel which talks of Arahants who haven’t attained the Jhanas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
arkaprava
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by arkaprava »

The five Sthavira versions of the Pavāraṇā Sutta enumerate categories of arhats
thus:
1. SN 8.7: Of these five hundred monks, Sāriputta, sixty monks have the three
knowledges, sixty monks have the six supernormal knowledges, sixty
monks are liberated in both ways, while the rest are liberated by wisdom.

2. MĀ 121: Of these five hundred monks, ninety monks have attained the
three knowledges, ninety monks have attained liberation in both ways,
while the remaining monks have attained liberation by wisdom.

3. SĀ 1212: Of these five hundred monks, ninety monks have attained the
three knowledges, ninety monks have attained liberation in both ways,
while the rest [have attained] liberation by wisdom.

4. SĀ2 228: Among this assembly of monks, ninety monks possess the three
knowledges, one hundred and eighty monks have attained liberation in both
ways, while the rest are all liberated by wisdom.

5. T 63: Of these five hundred monks, ninety monks have attained the three
knowledges, ninety monks have attained liberation in both ways, while
the remaining monks have attained liberation by wisdom
The Buddhist texts describe the four formless attainments (arūpa-samāpatti) as
attainments in samatha or concentrative meditation higher than the four jhānas
(dhyāna in Sanskrit). In line with the trend to devalue samatha and hence “liberation
of mind”, those who conceived the category of arhats “liberated by wisdom”
( paññā-vimutta) as stated in the Susīma Sutta (SN 12.70: II 119–28)
intended to provide a looser criterion for assessing arhats as far as samatha meditative
attainments are concerned. The divergent accounts in the different versions
of this text and the various interpretations of the text lead to disagreement
on how loose the criterion can be, i.e. what is the minimal attainment in samatha
possessed by an arhat. In the Pali version a number of monks claim to be “liberated
by wisdom” without having developed the formless attainments and the
first five of the six supernormal knowledges. The commentary glosses their
claim as: “We are jhāna-less, dry-insight practitioners, liberated by wisdom
alone”. Bodhi (2007: 55, 62) holds that even the compilers of this sutta
wish to insinuate that the arhats “liberated by wisdom” lack the distinguished
states of concentration, including the four jhānas, but they dare not say this
directly.

Cousins (1996: 57) states that the references to arhats “liberated
by wisdom” in the earlier texts (including the Susīma Sutta) seem mostly to say
that they had not developed the formless attainments or the first five abhiññās,
but the later tradition even accepts that there were such arhats who had not
developed all or even any of the four jhānas. In other words, according to the
earlier texts arhats “liberated by wisdom” lack the formless attainments but
still possess the jhānas.

Let us now turn to the Mūlasarvāstivāda version of the Susīma Sutta, SĀ 347
(T 99, II 96b–98a), extant in Chinese translation. In this version, a monk who
claims to be “liberated by wisdom” concedes that he does not attain any of the four jhānas or the peaceful emancipations that are formless, transcending
forms. In contrast with the ambiguity in the Theravāda version, the
Mūlasarvāstivāda version explicitly admits the existence of arhats who have dispensed
altogether with any attainments in concentrative meditation.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I wonder how the scholar differentiates Sarvāstivādin from Mūlasarvāstivādin given that he lists two different accounts from SĀ and identifies only one as Mūlasarvāstivādin?
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Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by pegembara »

confusedlayman wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:29 am how do u see automatic process of what's happening in mind or impermanent of conciousn activity without jhana?
With stillness and calm(samadhi) or "access concentration" without entering jhana. Being the witness for example -
In order to clearly know these three characteristics of aniccam, dukkham, and anatta the mind must be firm. Thus the effort to bring the mind to a secure and steadfast tranquillity, not allowing it to become fascinated by forms, sounds, odors, flavors, physical sensations and mental phenomena is the essence of meditation techniques, and something we must all develop. Take care when the eyes see forms not to let the mind waver: keep up the inner recitation of Buddho. Take care not to be deluded when hearing sounds: beautiful or ugly sounds are all just worldly conditions. Maintain the mind's firmness. The pleasant and offensive odors that contact the nose — know them, don't be deceived by them. No matter how delicious the taste of the food on the tongue — remain equanimous. Be impassive to the various physical sensations whether hot or cold, hard or soft. This is the supreme practice in Buddhism. So gather your energies and establish the mind in the present moment.

In general, meditator's minds are not unified and tranquil in the present moment — they are wandering up ahead and back behind, taking up external matters concerning other people and dwelling on them, finding pleasure and satisfaction in agreeable mental states. They are caught up entirely in superficialities. Although the mind of simple knowing is already present within us, unless we bring it to the fore through meditation, we will be unable to perceive the truth of suffering.

When suffering arises in the body, contemplate it so that the mind will accept it for what it is. When physical illness occurs, the grasping mind starts clinging to the idea of being ill. In fact it is the earth-element that is unwell. If the meditator's mind is stable and clearly sees the three characteristics he will simply regard illness as an affair of the elements. He knows that the mind is formless and not subject to such pains. It is due to clinging to the idea of self, and that the body belongs to self, that mental suffering arises. In fact this body is merely elements and it is the elements that are sick. It is the earth, water, fire and air elements that are disturbed. If one can separate things in this way then the mind rests at ease. Whatever occurs in the physical body, there is no clinging to it as belonging to self. It is seen as simply a matter of elements, a matter of aniccam dukkham anatta, it is just the nature of things.[3] The present knowing clearly, truly and constantly. The mind is cool, no longer hot with clinging.

Suppose someone harshly scolds or maligns us. Even if they abuse us right to our faces, if we don't cling, it ends right there. What has arisen passes away. But if the knowing is misled it grasps at this body and mind as being self. When someone speaks to us harshly we get angry: "That's nothing to do with me!" Due to clinging there is "me" and "mine." It is just this clinging that is the cause of suffering, agitation, turmoil and disease.

The Buddha taught us to let go of all external affairs during meditation: whatever physical or mental distress arises is just the suffering of the aggregates: don't let the knowing suffer. Meditate in order to attenuate the defilements of greed, hatred and delusion and ultimately bring them to an end. When the knowing is still deluded and clings to the idea of self, to "me" and "mine," then it takes birth. Perhaps it becomes an animal, a human being, a celestial being, Indra or a Brahma god. But whatever it becomes, it suffers just in being that. As long as there is still clinging to the elements and aggregates, to name and form, and there is no awareness of the way to abandon defilements, then there is suffering in the world. The five aggregates are classified as suffering in the world, for when one clings to them as "me" and "mine" then right there the mass of suffering appears. We sit right on the pile of suffering, in the midst of the fire of craving, hatred and delusion. The fire flares up and constantly burns our heart.

We are meditating now so as to gather the mind into the knowing, in order to put out the fires that are burning our hearts. Don't harbor the fire of anger. Abandon it. There is no need to get angry with anyone. If you feel any jealousy or ill-will towards anyone, give it up. Don't allow the mind to indulge in it. This is cleansing the knowing both day and night, whether standing, sitting, walking or laying down. It is not clinging to "me" and "mine." The aggregates do not belong to anyone, they are something natural to the world. As soon as the knowing is born with a name and form it tends to grasp onto that name and form as self. But can that name and form last indefinitely? If it could, nobody would die, nobody would become ill, nobody would experience pain or get old, because the aggregates would do what they are told. It is because the aggregates don't do what they are told that the Buddha taught us not to cling to them but to see them clearly with penetrative wisdom. If there is no clear seeing then there is suffering. So don't be fooled into clinging onto things; it is suffering in the world. When the knowing no longer clings it is empty, it is in meditation, it is cool and at ease.

All the different kinds of mental turmoil come from delusion, the agitated striving mind that wants to possess, want to get, wants to be; in other words the mind of craving. Get rid of craving and clinging from the mind. Try to prevent anything from accumulating in this knowing. Make the present knowing radiant and pure. Meditate. Firmly ground the mind. Gather the knowing onto itself and abandon the cognition of externals. Let the knowing dwell in the heart. Whatever the posture of the body let the knowing know itself at all times.

If an evil thought arises abandon it. If goodness occurs develop it and here, the goodness we resolve to develop is exemplified by the mantra "Buddho." We develop it or concentrate on it internally so as to make the mind cool and happy. We prevent agitation and distress with the elements and aggregates, with the bodies and minds of other people. We don't allow them inside. When the mind is thus cool and at ease, it is said that "Buddho" is dwelling in the heart. In other words the knowing lies within.

To produce this firm and enduring tranquillity you must go against the stream and enter within. Then you will understand the practice of Dhamma with the mindfulness and wisdom that are present in the heart. If there is no countering the stream and no entry within, the search for virtue externally is an endless one. Truth and virtue do not lie beneath the land or sea, or in the sky or in space. They lie in volitions, the mind that makes effort to give up evil and do good. When the mind converges right here it becomes spacious, cool and easeful, it is established in Dhamma practice. Sitting there is meditation in the sitting posture, standing there is meditation in the standing posture, walking there is meditation while walking and lying down there is meditation until one falls asleep. As soon as we wake we continue the inner recitation of "Buddho," making "Buddho" our constant concern. Wherever the mind goes we don't follow it. We give up all the going and settle for dwelling.

The knowing lies right here within us; everything else is merely a passing affair. The truth lies with the knowing. Clearly observe that since our birth into this world, the knowing has dwelt in the body. Wherever we go, the body goes too. The knowing cannot escape from the body and mind. It drags the body with it here and there. When we sit it is the body that sits and when we lay down it is the body that lays down, and so the knowing is deceived into attaching to that name and form, the provisional realities of the world. Not comprehending the way to withdraw from them and put them down, the defilements of greed, hatred and delusion steadily accumulate.

So in studying Buddhism, whether it's the Dhamma or the Discipline, whatever method it is being taught by, having studied we must put those teachings into practice. We must compose this knowing firmly on itself. Keep the mind within, don't allow it to wander about and become fascinated with sentient beings and the material world, through delusion and unclear seeing.

Resolve to put forth effort. Aspire to rid yourself of defilements. Greed, hatred and delusion all lie here within the mind so put effort into abandoning them just here. Be vigilant and care for the mind right here. Recite "Buddho" right here. Compose the knowing. When we have established the knowing in this way then in whatever posture we are in there is constant meditation. Sitting here we can inwardly recite "Buddho," undistracted and undeceived by external matters. We have been deluded by the external world for countless lifetimes. Let us not be deluded by it any more.

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And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
form
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by form »

un8- wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:14 pm
form wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:13 pm There are suttas that pointed out there are dry insight arahats. Also, there is the insights only approach all the way to arahatship. The people probably still possessed the minimum access concentration.
No there is no such thing in the suttas. The suttas point out that a pannavimutti Arahant doesn't require the formless jhanas, they still require the first four jhanas.
You are right. Those suttas i just reviewed again, they refer to before enlighment.
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