Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

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Ceisiwr
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Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Sambodhi sutta is an interesting one. It starts off by listing all the factors that need to be completed for stream-entry
“Mendicants, if wanderers who follow other paths were to ask: ‘Reverends, what is the vital condition for the development of the awakening factors?’ You should answer them:

‘It’s when a mendicant has good friends, companions, and associates. This is the first vital condition for the development of the awakening factors.

Furthermore, a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the monastic code, conducting themselves well and seeking alms in suitable places. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, they keep the rules they’ve undertaken. This is the second vital condition for the development of the awakening factors.

Furthermore, a mendicant gets to take part in talk about self-effacement that helps open the heart, when they want, without trouble or difficulty. That is, talk about fewness of wishes, contentment, seclusion, aloofness, arousing energy, ethics, immersion, wisdom, freedom, and the knowledge and vision of freedom. This is the third vital condition for the development of the awakening factors.

Furthermore, a mendicant lives with energy roused up for giving up unskillful qualities and embracing skillful qualities. They are strong, staunchly vigorous, not slacking off when it comes to developing skillful qualities. This is the fourth vital condition for the development of the awakening factors.

Furthermore, a mendicant is wise. They have the wisdom of arising and passing away which is noble, penetrative, and leads to the complete ending of suffering. This is the fifth vital condition for the development of the awakening factors.’
https://suttacentral.net/an9.1/en/sujato

It then goes on to say that once these factors have been established, next the monk or nun should develop 4 further things
They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’. When you perceive impermanence, the perception of not-self becomes stabilized. Perceiving not-self, you uproot the conceit ‘I am’ and attain extinguishment in this very life.”
What is interesting then is that for there to be stream-entry there needs to be the following:

Initial Practice
  • Good friends, companions, and associates.
  • Morality and sense restraint.
  • Regular discussions about the Dhamma.
  • Effort to abandon what is unwholesome and maintain what is wholesome.
  • The wisdom of directly knowing arising and passing away, which is another way of saying they directly know paṭiccasmuppāda.
Only then do they then start practicing the following meditations

Development
  • Perception of ugliness to give up greed.
  • Love to give up hate.
  • Mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking.
  • Perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’.
Notice how directly knowing paṭiccasmuppāda comes before the common meditation practices of Buddhism are even engaged with. Also notice how practices usually associated with Jhāna only come after directly knowing paṭiccasmuppāda, and that there is no mention of the requirement of Jhāna in order to fulfil the requirements of stream-entry. We also seem to have an outline of how these further practices are to be developed:

Perception of foulness of the body > loving kindness > mindfulness of breathing > jhāna > perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’

Thoughts?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:28 pm they directly know dependent arising

Thoughts?
right
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

A related sutta is the Mahāsaḷāyatanika sutta (MN 149). It's the only sutta where a practice is outlined where samatha and vipassana are said to operate in tandem. It seems the person who is doing the practice is a stream-enterer, since they are not fully awakened yet they do directly know and understand the 6 sense bases. The stream-enterer then mediates on the impermanence of the 6 senses, much like a vipassana type meditation practice, which eventually results in Jhāna and awakening as an Arahant. A bare awareness or shikantaza approach, if you will.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Consider this sutta too, which I have never read before
“After the rainy season the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates.

In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of the teaching arises in a noble disciple, three fetters are given up: identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
https://suttacentral.net/an3.94/en/sujato

First comes directly knowing dependent origination, which must be via contemplating impermanence of the senses or aggregates, and only afterwards does Jhāna comes and it is the attaining of Jhāna which distinguishes a stream-enterer from a non-returner (I will assume here that a Once-returner is somewhere in the middle in terms of meditation). This outline of development also matches the sambodhi sutta

Directly knowing dependent origination > development of repulsive to give up desire > development of loving-kindness to give up aversion > Jhāna (i would say by way of mindfulness of breathing)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:05 pm Once-returner is somewhere in the middle in terms of meditation
That's possible.

Another hypothesis is that once-returner attains some jhanas and non-returner masters them. But I honestly don't know if the distinction attaining/mastering is present in the suttas.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:05 pm Once-returner is somewhere in the middle in terms of meditation
That's possible.

Another hypothesis is that once-returner attains some jhanas and non-returner masters them. But I honestly don't know if the distinction attaining/mastering is present in the suttas.
Possibly, but even then the stream-enterer is without them it seems.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:36 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:05 pm Once-returner is somewhere in the middle in terms of meditation
That's possible.

Another hypothesis is that once-returner attains some jhanas and non-returner masters them. But I honestly don't know if the distinction attaining/mastering is present in the suttas.
Possibly, but even then the stream-enterer is without them it seems.
Yes, I agree.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

There is a further aspect of the Sambodhi sutta. First the monk or nun directly knows dependent origination, thus becoming a stream-enterer. Then they develop those meditation practices. What is interesting is that they can be mapped onto the hindrances, with the hindrances being what holds one back from Jhāna. The stream-enterer is beyond doubt, so that is already dealt with. They have also perfected effort, so sloth and torpor have also been dealt with prior. That leaves the remaining hindrances.

Perception of ugliness to give up greed = diminishes the hindrance of sense desire

Love to give up hate = diminishes the hindrance of aversion.

Mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking = diminishes the hindrance of restlessness-and-worrying thoughts

The stages of mindfulness of breathing then result in Jhāna, which is followed by contemplating impermanence post Jhāna to cut off "I am" and so to fully awaken.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:43 pm They have also perfected effort
Where can I read about it?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:43 pm They have also perfected effort
Where can I read about it?
“There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. […] With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.”—-AN 3.85

To be wholly accomplished in virtue means perfect virtue, which in turn requires sustained effort to prevent the arising of the unwholesome and the maintenance of the wholesome. This is also tied to sense restraint. In seeing there is just the seen etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:22 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:11 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:43 pm They have also perfected effort
Where can I read about it?
“There is the case where a monk is wholly accomplished in virtue, moderately accomplished in concentration, and moderately accomplished in discernment. […] With the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, never again destined for states of woe, certain, headed for self-awakening.”—-AN 3.85

To be wholly accomplished in virtue means perfect virtue, which in turn requires sustained effort to prevent the arising of the unwholesome and the maintenance of the wholesome. This is also tied to sense restraint. In seeing there is just the seen etc.
Is it possible that the above is specifically about monk as an option, and not as a requirement? What about that drunk layman becoming a sotapanna?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:32 pm

Is it possible that the above is specifically about monk as an option, and not as a requirement? What about that drunk layman becoming a sotapanna?
My reading is that he fulfilled those things when seeing the Buddha and listening to him, but I would put that down to him being rather unique. I mean he also abandoned the hindrances when hearing the Dhamma talk, but clearly he wasn’t in Jhana. The suttas I’ve quoted seem to be for those of us who need to work at it, so to speak.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by pegembara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:05 pm Consider this sutta too, which I have never read before
“After the rainy season the sky is clear and cloudless. And when the sun rises, it dispels all the darkness from the sky as it shines and glows and radiates.

In the same way, when the stainless, immaculate vision of the teaching arises in a noble disciple, three fetters are given up: identity view, doubt, and misapprehension of precepts and observances.

Afterwards they get rid of two things: desire and aversion. Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, they enter and remain in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. If that noble disciple passed away at that time, they’re bound by no fetter that might return them to this world.”
https://suttacentral.net/an3.94/en/sujato

First comes directly knowing dependent origination, which must be via contemplating impermanence of the senses or aggregates, and only afterwards does Jhāna comes and it is the attaining of Jhāna which distinguishes a stream-enterer from a non-returner (I will assume here that a Once-returner is somewhere in the middle in terms of meditation). This outline of development also matches the sambodhi sutta

Directly knowing dependent origination > development of repulsive to give up desire > development of loving-kindness to give up aversion > Jhāna (i would say by way of mindfulness of breathing)
A non-returner doesn't need the pleasure of the five senses anymore. He doesn't need to engage in the rupa realms - no more temptations of the world left ie. sights, sounds, smells, taste and touch - bliss born of seclusion.
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by confusedlayman »

how do u see automatic process of what's happening in mind or impermanent of conciousn activity without jhana?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: Sambodhi sutta - No Jhāna needed for Stream-Entry?

Post by un8- »

Not all suttas describe every detail of the path, so you can't rely on just one sutta. I believe attaining stream entry fruit requires at least a fingersnap's moment of jhana, enough to confirm Dependent Origination.
With confident heart I paid homage to the Buddha. The Buddha taught me step by step, with a talk on giving, ethical conduct, and heaven. He explained the drawbacks of sensual pleasures, so sordid and corrupt, and the benefit of renunciation. And when he knew that my mind was ready, pliable, rid of hindrances, joyful, and confident he explained the special teaching of the Buddhas: suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. Just as a clean cloth rid of stains would properly absorb dye, in that very seat the stainless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma arose in me: ‘Everything that has a beginning has an end.’ I saw, attained, understood, and fathomed the Dhamma. I went beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and became self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instructions.
Overcoming the hindrances and attaining joy sounds like a fingersnap moment of jhana.


MN 48 is a sutta that tells you how to figure out if you've attained stream entry fruit.

They know how to overcome the 5 hindrances
And how does the view that is noble and emancipating lead one who practices it to the complete ending of suffering? It’s when a mendicant has gone to a wilderness, or to the root of a tree, or to an empty hut, and reflects like this, ‘Is there anything that I’m overcome with internally and haven’t given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see?’ If a mendicant is overcome with sensual desire, it’s their mind that’s overcome. If a mendicant is overcome with ill will, dullness and drowsiness, restlessness and remorse, doubt, pursuing speculation about this world, pursuing speculation about the next world, or arguing, quarreling, and fighting, continually wounding others with barbed words, it’s their mind that’s overcome. They understand, ‘There is nothing that I’m overcome with internally and haven’t given up, because of which I might not accurately know and see. My mind is properly disposed for awakening to the truths.’ This is the first knowledge they have achieved that is noble and transcendent, and is not shared with ordinary people.
They attain samatha (which is a jhanic)
Furthermore, a noble disciple reflects, ‘When I develop, cultivate, and make much of this view, do I personally gain serenity and quenching?’ They understand, ‘When I develop, cultivate, and make much of this view, I personally gain serenity and quenching.’ This is their second knowledge
When a noble disciple has these seven factors, they have properly investigated their own nature with respect to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry.
So I believe they can attain jhana, it's just harder and short lived for them, whereas a non-returner gets jhanas at will and whenever they want.

Also those perceptions you listed are for overcoming the hindrances.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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