Is there mind independent reality?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Is there mind independent reality?

1.) Yes, things like trees, rocks, the earth, water, fire, buildings, other planets, the sun, galaxies, etc. are mind independent.
12
41%
2.) Yes, but in some qualified way (please explain in comments).
4
14%
3.) Yes, but only Nibbana.
2
7%
4.) No.
5
17%
5.) It's complicated, none of the above (please explain in the comments).
6
21%
 
Total votes: 29

zan
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Is there mind independent reality?

Post by zan »

Please pick one option.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I voted option 1.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Bundokji
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Bundokji »

I voted number 5.

The notion of "mind independent reality" assumes that within the duality of mind and matter/body, mind comes first and then what is real is measured against this assumption. In other words, it assumes that there is a mind and it shapes reality either partially or totally. In fact, even if this is true, it has little bearing to the question of whether there is mind independent reality or not.

Let us assume that there is a mind, which is a knowing faculty, and the mind suspects that appearing objects are either of its own making or have independent existence. How did the mind know of its own existence without the appearing objects? So questioning the independence of the objects is questioning the existence of the mind itself within this construct.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I voted 5. Seems to me to say there are mind independent “things” lends itself to substance metaphysics, but the alternative is to deny substance which lends itself to Phenomenalism and idealistic immaterialism. I don’t think the Buddha approve of either, but certainly by convention we can speak of external “things”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
sphairos
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by sphairos »

I am hesitant between 4 and 5 but voted 4. What I am sure in is that everything/anything is ineffable.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 pmI voted 5. Seems to me to say there are mind independent “things” lends itself to substance metaphysics, but the alternative is to deny substance which lends itself to Phenomenalism and idealistic immaterialism.
Do you consider the thesis of your "Existence of Nibbāna" thread to be a substance metaphysic? If Zan had asked about "things like Nibbāna," would you have answered with "1?"
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Location: Wales

Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 pmI voted 5. Seems to me to say there are mind independent “things” lends itself to substance metaphysics, but the alternative is to deny substance which lends itself to Phenomenalism and idealistic immaterialism.
Do you consider the thesis of your "Existence of Nibbāna" thread to be a substance metaphysic? If Zan had asked about "things like Nibbāna," would you have answered with "1?"
It’s no longer my view, but still no. I was posting an undefinable “something. Thinking about it though, that sounds like a substance :lol:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SteRo
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by SteRo »

None of the options offerered because the attitude that can be expressed is: neither yes, nor no, nor is complicated. It's just irrelevant from the outset.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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DNS
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by DNS »

Option one.

Last night I was walking and gazed at the Full Moon. Then I turned away. It didn't disappear; it was still there. :tongue:
SarathW
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by SarathW »

DNS wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:46 pm Option one.

Last night I was walking and gazed at the Full Moon. Then I turned away. It didn't disappear; it was still there. :tongue:
Once I saw a meteorite it disappeared in front of my eye!
:D
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by SarathW »

I would say there are dependently originated phenomena.
I have to vote for all five depending on the situation.
So I did not vote because if I vote that also dependently originated.
:meditate:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
DiamondNgXZ
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

I voted 2.

From Physics, it's hard to imagine that the physical world doesn't exist if everyone in samsara attains to Nibbana, the non living entities like Planets, Stars, may still exist.

However, since if all minds attained to Nibbana, there's no mind left to verify if anything can exist independent of mind. Thus, this is in a qualified way. Yes, matter can be independent of mind, but who can ever verify it?
pegembara
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by pegembara »

Sure - you see the world still existing even when others have died but what if everyone including you is dead?
Do "non-living" entities like viruses see trees, stars, people? I doubt this.

All fall under the category of dependently originated phenomena or conditioned things.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by pegembara »

SarathW wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:00 pm
DNS wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:46 pm Option one.

Last night I was walking and gazed at the Full Moon. Then I turned away. It didn't disappear; it was still there. :tongue:
Once I saw a meteorite it disappeared in front of my eye!
:D
I saw myself in the mirror.
I turned away and when I looked in the mirror again I was still there.
There is no Bodhi tree,
Nor stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is void,
Where can the dust alight

Huineng
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by SarathW »

In Buddhism, it teaches six main elements.
Earth, water,fire,air,space and consciousness. (In Abhidhamma it add Nibbana as well)
Consciousness arise like the fire.
The way I understand that only the space and Nibbana are not changing (because they are not a thing) and the rest is Dependently Originated.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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