Is there mind independent reality?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Is there mind independent reality?

1.) Yes, things like trees, rocks, the earth, water, fire, buildings, other planets, the sun, galaxies, etc. are mind independent.
12
41%
2.) Yes, but in some qualified way (please explain in comments).
4
14%
3.) Yes, but only Nibbana.
2
7%
4.) No.
5
17%
5.) It's complicated, none of the above (please explain in the comments).
6
21%
 
Total votes: 29

justindesilva
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by justindesilva »

zan wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:44 pm Please pick one option.
Voted option 1 as they are all concepts or sankalpa. They can be illusions depending on one's vingnana.
ToVincent
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by ToVincent »

#5

The problem is that some people see causation, when there is only correlation.

For instance, paccaya does not mean "condition". And hetu (hi-tu) does not mean "cause" - Hetu is just what sets in motion , impels (RV. AV. ŚBr.) , incites to (RV.).
And the correlation is the feedback (paccaya).
For instance, there is a correlation between craving and sense-consciousness. Or more precisely, there is a correlation between the mano that craves (hetu) , and the mano that experiences sense-consciousness (paccaya).
There is a correlation between birth and death - (death is the feedback of birth) — Birth as the cause, or condition for death is an empty talk - Feedback (death) on an "impulsion" (birth), is the correlation that imports.

What is (or are) the correlation(s) between mind & matter?

Reductive, emergence, dual aspect — Who has the definite solution?
Quantum hidden variables, many worlds, agents, etc., etc., etc. — who has it right?

To have one's preference related to what Buddha did teach, is something quite understandable — However, to impart to Buddha this or that theory, would be a bit pretentious - wouldn't it?.

I suppose that more contemporary researches on these possible correlations, might make one less sure of his/her affirmations + a better understanding on a possible independent mind reality.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Coëmgenu »

ToVincent wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:50 pmFor instance, paccaya does not mean "condition". And hetu (hi-tu) does not mean "cause" - Hetu is just what sets in motion , impels (RV. AV. ŚBr.) , incites to (RV.).
And the correlation is the feedback (paccaya).
None of these alternative definitions are correct, however.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:08 pm
ToVincent wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:50 pmFor instance, paccaya does not mean "condition". And hetu (hi-tu) does not mean "cause" - Hetu is just what sets in motion , impels (RV. AV. ŚBr.) , incites to (RV.).
And the correlation is the feedback (paccaya).
None of these alternative definitions are correct, however.
And how do you translate those words?

Is that for instance how you translate paccaya?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41213&p=643114&hil ... on#p643114
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't translate it, tbh. I use the pre-existing accurate translations of "condition" and "cause." The PTS dictionary is not inaccurate regarding them. I have to get back to responding to something comparatively worthwhile, so I'll be absent for a bit from this thread. I'll rest assured that you will likely be further trying to undermine the PTS dictionary.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
Posts: 1839
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:50 pm I don't translate it, tbh. I use the pre-existing accurate translations of "condition" and "cause." The PTS dictionary is not inaccurate regarding them. I have to get back to responding to something comparatively worthwhile, so I'll be absent for a bit from this thread. I'll rest assured that you will likely be further trying to undermine the PTS dictionary.
Not this time — Not really — Although :thinking:

I am just taking two words; namely paṭicca (fr. pacceti), and paccaya - coming both from prati-√ i.
I am giving the meaning of the verb prati-√ i; from pre- Buddhist literary sources.
+ Check the meaning of pacceti, on the Pali dictionaries:
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/pacceti/
Isn't your beloved dictionary, that is right on this one chronologically , delivers the meaning: "come back to" (aka "feedback") .

Why paccaya would be "cause" - or even "condition"?


While we are at it, also note that with a more proper grammatical translation we would have:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paccayā (instr. sing. of paccaya (m.))
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā
Saṅkhārā (nom. pl. m.) are the feedback of (by) avijjā.
In other words, avijjā is the "impulse", whose feedback are saṅkhārā.

Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ
Viññāṇaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of saṅkhāra.

Viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṃ
Nāmarūpaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of viññāṇa.

Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ
Saḷāyatanaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of nāmarūpa.

Saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso
Phasso (nom. sing. m.) is the feedback of saḷāyatana.

phassapaccayā vedanā (f.)
Vedanā (nom. sing. f.) is the feedback of phassa.

etc.
vedanāpaccayā taṇhā, (f.)
taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ, (nt.)
upādānapaccayā bhavo, (m.)
bhavapaccayā jāti, (f. )
jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ (f. nt.)



See the difference:

Saṅkhārā are the feedback of (by) avijjā.
Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā

Ignorance is a condition for choices” (Sujato)
Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā

With ignorance as condition, volitional formations (Bodhi)
Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā

-----

What would the proper translation be, with "feedback" (come back to) , instead of "condition"?

Ignorance is the feedback of (come back to ) choices” (Sujato)

Or worse,
Saṅkhārā are the condition of avijjā ?!?!?!

----------------

Have I told you about nidāna?

Nidāna (instr. of nidā)
nidā (ni-√ dā)

ni = down , back
√ dā = to bind VS.

Nidāna = (what) binds down (and back).

PTS gives the right meaning of:"tying down to" - (but they forgot the underlying "back" ).
A "spirit" gave them the other meanings?

_______________________

Anyway, that what just to say that correlation matters. Not cause or condition.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Juriks
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Juriks »

There is no reality independent of frame reference. I mean
nothing is invariant from absolute point of view.
This is actually thesis based on current science.

There is very good book about it "Trespassing on Einstein's Lawn".

Here is her article which give a good taste of this thesis.

http://m.nautil.us/issue/40/learning/th ... nowhere-rp

So, I voted option 4.

Nibbana as undifferentiated consciousness - super symmetric state (absolutely invariant) and "inside" it, local, only relatively invariant phenomena like time, space, quantum fields, rock, trees, and so on.
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