Is there mind independent reality?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Is there mind independent reality?

1.) Yes, things like trees, rocks, the earth, water, fire, buildings, other planets, the sun, galaxies, etc. are mind independent.
12
41%
2.) Yes, but in some qualified way (please explain in comments).
4
14%
3.) Yes, but only Nibbana.
2
7%
4.) No.
5
17%
5.) It's complicated, none of the above (please explain in the comments).
6
21%
 
Total votes: 29

zan
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by zan »

41, 12, 6, 18, 24. These are the numbers thus far. What's weird is, they add up to 101%.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Rounding, I think. Seventeen is a prime number and the percentages don't have decimal points...? I'm bad at math.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Pröh
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Pröh »

Felt a strong urge to choose 1, but my honest answer is 2, though I don't know how to justify it. From my limited knowledge of the Pali canon to me it seems to imply either 1 or 2 (or 5).
The Buddha has no issue with talking about material things:
"Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body — however it stands, however it is disposed — in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'
DN22
On the other hand, if ignorance is ultimately the root of phenomena (as it says in the 12 nidanas), then perhaps that must mean all reality is mind-dependent because "ignorance" seems to imply a kind of "mind". It is unclear to me how to interpret it though.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Spiny Norman »

I reckon there is stuff out there, partly because of the high level of agreement between people about what they experience. If it's a delusion, it's a shared delusion, and a remarkably consistent one. On the other hand, it seems that we create a mental model of the world, a sort of partial representation of "reality".
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:35 pm I reckon there is stuff out there, partly because of the high level of agreement between people about what they experience. If it's a delusion, it's a shared delusion, and a remarkably consistent one. On the other hand, it seems that we create a mental model of the world, a sort of partial representation of "reality".
What “stuff” is out there?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Spiny Norman
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:36 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:35 pm I reckon there is stuff out there, partly because of the high level of agreement between people about what they experience. If it's a delusion, it's a shared delusion, and a remarkably consistent one. On the other hand, it seems that we create a mental model of the world, a sort of partial representation of "reality".
What “stuff” is out there?
Stuff made of the elements. Stuff that we see, hear, feel, etc.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
zan
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by zan »

How is it only 21 people voted? There's so many users I hoped for at least 25.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
un8-
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by un8- »

zan wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:29 pm How is it only 21 people voted? There's so many users I hoped for at least 25.
Some people don't know and don't engage in speculation about things they don't know. It's a pretty convoluted question too based on how you frame things.

Trees and rocks do not have a mind, doesn't mean they exist in a reality independent of a mind, as to observe them requires a mind. It's like characters in the video game are independent, but since you're viewing the video game, then they're not actually independent. So it's based on point of view, thus it's open to speculation.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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confusedlayman
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by confusedlayman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:47 pm I voted option 1.
how do you know without the mind? even if others say then only when ur mind arises those exp arises ..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
zan
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by zan »

We are almost at a tie here. Need more votes.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:14 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:47 pmI voted option 1.
how do you know without the mind? even if others say then only when ur mind arises those exp arises ..
Yes, experiences are always accompanied by the mind. I answer yes to "1" because two minds are able to perceive the same object. If the object were completely dependent on the observing mind, then there would be two objects: one for each perceiving mind.

Now, there actually are two objects. Each mind perceives in a way not quite the same as another. Even if the material "eye-consciousness" perceptions are identical, we can attribute drastically different meanings, via the mind-base, to a witnessed thing, and that is all still a part of "perception." The dress meme where the dress was blue-and-black, then white-and-gold, then blue-and-black is a good example. There are also auditory illusions similar to that, where some people hear one word while others hear a different word. This is because people are imperfect hearers and seers. What we see and hear is a little bit personal to each person. Google "qualia," if I'm spelling it right.

The personal nature of quality aside, that most witnesses can agree that they witnessed a certain thing before them indicates that it is most likely the thing exists. It might not, but it's likely enough that you can proceed as if it were truly the case. I'm a pragmatist.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:36 pm What “stuff” is out there?
people, places, things
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 11:36 pm What “stuff” is out there?
people, places, things
Those are names, yes, but what’s behind the words?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:18 pm Those are names, yes, but what’s behind the words?
strike a balance between self and no self


which is… not self
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Coëmgenu »

:spy: :rolleye: :sage:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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