Is there mind independent reality?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Is there mind independent reality?

1.) Yes, things like trees, rocks, the earth, water, fire, buildings, other planets, the sun, galaxies, etc. are mind independent.
12
41%
2.) Yes, but in some qualified way (please explain in comments).
4
14%
3.) Yes, but only Nibbana.
2
7%
4.) No.
5
17%
5.) It's complicated, none of the above (please explain in the comments).
6
21%
 
Total votes: 29

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SamD
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by SamD »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 pm I voted 5. Seems to me to say there are mind independent “things” lends itself to substance metaphysics, but the alternative is to deny substance which lends itself to Phenomenalism and idealistic immaterialism. I don’t think the Buddha approve of either, but certainly by convention we can speak of external “things”.
:goodpost:
pegembara
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by pegembara »

If there are no minds around, would this conversation whether there is a reality independent of the mind even take place! :shrug:
This constant need to know is simply mind fabrication.
"Now I wonder — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents?"

The Blessed One, perceiving with his awareness the train of thought in the monk's awareness, said to the monks, "I have analyzed & taught you the Dhamma, monks. I have analyzed & taught you the four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, & the noble eightfold path. And yet, even though I have analyzed & taught you the Dhamma, still there appears this train of thought in the awareness of one of the monks: 'Now I wonder — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents?'

Or... he may be doubtful & uncertain, having come to no conclusion with regard to the true Dhamma. That doubt, uncertainty, & coming-to-no-conclusion is a fabrication.

"What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Dhamma Chameleon
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Dhamma Chameleon »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:34 am I voted 2.

From Physics, it's hard to imagine that the physical world doesn't exist if everyone in samsara attains to Nibbana, the non living entities like Planets, Stars, may still exist.

However, since if all minds attained to Nibbana, there's no mind left to verify if anything can exist independent of mind. Thus, this is in a qualified way. Yes, matter can be independent of mind, but who can ever verify it?
Ditto :hello: Rupa exists, but needs an observer in order to manifest
un8-
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by un8- »

zan wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:44 pm Please pick one option.
None of the above. This form of question is unanswerable, unknowable, improper attention, and doesn't lead to the ending of suffering. It's simply a waste of time.

Also, if you look at the Agganna sutta, it saysthat matter in the universe was created by beings being careless and craving arose due to them eating a ball of mass that looked like honey. Before that happened, there was no Earth or stars, I believe just a body of space and water. So if you define reality as objects of experience, there was very little rupa to experience before those beings created the stars with their craving.

So craving created the stars, therefore one could say reality/experience is dependent on craving, and that would be proper attention.
There is only one battle that could be won, and that is the battle against the 3 poisons. Any other battle is a guaranteed loss because you're going to die either way.
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

DNS wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:46 pm Option one.

Last night I was walking and gazed at the Full Moon. Then I turned away. It didn't disappear; it was still there. :tongue:


The same cannot be applied for some distant stars light-years away. The star in front of the eyes may have already exploded already.

Even the moon seen before your eyes is 1.255 seconds a little bit too younger than its elder sister up there.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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mjaviem
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by mjaviem »

Is there mind independent reality? Yes, the truth is unconditioned and stands by itself.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
asahi
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by asahi »

I try to convince my friend that the money in the bank under my name will vanish if i refuse to acknowledge that the money are real .🤑
No bashing No gossiping
zan
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by zan »

SteRo wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:09 pm None of the options offerered because the attitude that can be expressed is: neither yes, nor no, nor is complicated. It's just irrelevant from the outset.
You should pick option five then, because it includes "none of the above."
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by zan »

I'm surprised by these numbers, but, on the other hand, the total number of votes is decidedly low. I'm interested to see if it changes as more people vote.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
pulga
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by pulga »

Rūpa is independent of nāma, but requires nāma in order to exist. This is what the Kevaddhasutta is all about, cf. Ven. Ñanavira's SN Rūpa.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
zan
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by zan »

Just to be clear, I have no intention of making this thread into any kind of debate. This is purely for interesting info and seeing the opinions of our members :)
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by Ceisiwr »

zan wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:37 am I'm surprised by these numbers, but, on the other hand, the total number of votes is decidedly low. I'm interested to see if it changes as more people vote.
Why are you surprised?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
may.all.bliss
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by may.all.bliss »

All these things are mind, all are interconnected, can't have one part without the other, it's 'undiversified', and beyond mind there is nibanna, but that's not a 'reality', it's the absence of thoughts and activity as far as I have glimpsed.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:09 pm I voted 5. Seems to me to say there are mind independent “things” lends itself to substance metaphysics, but the alternative is to deny substance which lends itself to Phenomenalism and idealistic immaterialism. I don’t think the Buddha approve of either, but certainly by convention we can speak of external “things”.
I subscribe :)

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
sphairos
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Re: Is there mind independent reality?

Post by sphairos »

zan wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:37 am I'm surprised by these numbers, but, on the other hand, the total number of votes is decidedly low. I'm interested to see if it changes as more people vote.
It is because you formulated the question very abstractly and philosophically. In this way people think about how they can perceive matter without mind and it is difficult :)

If you formulate "are trees, houses, cars real?" you will get a lot of "confirmations".
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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