simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Post Reply
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by frank k »

simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... tween.html


Following up on this article,
DN 2 Third jhāna formula translation, "You get to personally experience B. Sujato's sophistry"
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... ation.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
BrokenBones
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

Frank, I agree with you 100%... but...

there's probably no need to be so judgmental of Bhante Sujato. I think you can make the argument quite easily of Bhante Sujato's obviously mistaken interpretation without recourse to denigration... his view seems to be a view backed up by his own personal experience (wrong experience/interpretation), it doesn't quite equate to sophistry... just mistaken.

Hard jhana's seem to be a real thing and I can see how some could take them as Samma Samadhi... even though they're not.

Once the mistake has been made and invested in, it's only human nature to cut bits off the jigsaw puzzle to make them fit. Obviously this isn't ideal and needs to be highlighted, which you do.

As far as I am aware, Bhante Sujato upholds the Vinaya.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Ontheway »

Why takes Bhikkhu Sujato's personal comment seriously ? :shrug:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
BrokenBones
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 am

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:30 pm Why takes Bhikkhu Sujato's personal comment seriously ? :shrug:
Why or who?

Bhante Sujato is quite a prominent western monk and his site is a bit of a go to for English speaking practitioners and students of Pali... it's important to highlight the discrepancies.
Mr. Seek
Posts: 582
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:45 am

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Mr. Seek »

Why assume the 4 jhanas are EBT material?

Why argue over what is unclear when you can just work with what is clear?
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by frank k »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:30 pm Why takes Bhikkhu Sujato's personal comment seriously ? :shrug:
Now you have Charles Patton, who translates from Chinese to English sutras, following Sujato in third jhana with , "he personally experiences".
Who knows how many other language translators are following Sujato's wrong interpretation?
I'd bet more than a few. I remember a few years ago I ran either a Spanish or Portuguese sutta central jhana translation through google translate, and it sure looked like they were following Sujato's wrong interpretations.

Unfortunately popular monk influencers have an outsized effect how how Dharma is understood.

if Sujato was just a fringe opinion, I wouldn't waste any time debating him. But you can see the effect of his popularity. Seems over 90% of the posts I read that quote suttas, quote his translation.
Last edited by frank k on Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:48 am .
Hey,
Sukha what is felt is asmimāna in other words. Therefore i think it is ok to say about 3rd jhana pleasure is personally felt.
The 4th jhana,
https://suttacentral.net/an4.195/en/sujato wrote: “A mendicant whose mind is rightly freed like this has achieved six consistent responses.
“Evaṁ sammā vimuttacittassa kho, vappa, bhikkhuno cha satatavihārā adhigatā honti.
Seeing a sight with the eye, they’re neither happy nor sad, but remain equanimous, mindful and aware.
So cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā neva sumano hoti na dummano; upekkhako viharati sato sampajāno.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by asahi »

FYI

According to the parallel Sukha is felt bodily (physically) .
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by frank k »

Not sure what your point is and what AN 4.195 proves.
Third jhana is clearly a situation where the Buddha is specifically saying the sukha is bodily, as opposed to mental or metaphorical. Just as in SN 36 vedana samyutta there are several places in there designating bodily over mental, and see the petakopadesa jhana description, jhanas 1 - 4 they labroriusly designate piti and sukha having either bodily or mental effect.

auto wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:59 pm
frank k wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:48 am .
Hey,
Sukha what is felt is asmimāna in other words. Therefore i think it is ok to say about 3rd jhana pleasure is personally felt.
The 4th jhana,
https://suttacentral.net/an4.195/en/sujato wrote: “A mendicant whose mind is rightly freed like this has achieved six consistent responses.
“Evaṁ sammā vimuttacittassa kho, vappa, bhikkhuno cha satatavihārā adhigatā honti.
Seeing a sight with the eye, they’re neither happy nor sad, but remain equanimous, mindful and aware.
So cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā neva sumano hoti na dummano; upekkhako viharati sato sampajāno.
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:09 am Not sure what your point is and what AN 4.195 proves.
Third jhana is clearly a situation where the Buddha is specifically saying the sukha is bodily, as opposed to mental or metaphorical. Just as in SN 36 vedana samyutta there are several places in there designating bodily over mental, and see the petakopadesa jhana description, jhanas 1 - 4 they labroriusly designate piti and sukha having either bodily or mental effect.
Be more paradigmatic. The samadhi feeling seem to be ajjhatta(internal, personal). And thus how do you classify if the feeling you feeling is bodily or is it mental? the compound next to the feeling seem to be the mano. The mind is what awakens to the bliss and this together could be the bliss body, niramisa sukha(not of the flesh) or different tradition it could be nirmana kaya.
https://suttacentral.net/an10.26/en/sujato wrote:alone, practicing absorption, I awakened to bliss.
Ekohaṁ jhāyaṁ sukhamanubodhiṁ,
Feelings are felt personally,
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato wrote:It’s for one who feels that I declare: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.
Vediyamānassa kho panāhaṁ, bhikkhave, idaṁ dukkhanti paññapemi, ayaṁ dukkhasamudayoti paññapemi, ayaṁ dukkhanirodhoti paññapemi, ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadāti paññapemi.
See, someone is feeling sukha
https://suttacentral.net/mn118/en/sujato wrote: When the body is tranquil and they feel bliss, the mind becomes immersed in samādhi.
Passaddhakāyassa sukhino cittaṁ samādhiyati.
I don't know about petakopadesa jhana, you don't give a link. But to me it seem you are too narrow that even if you could stalwart your way that it is bodily then what?
User avatar
frank k
Posts: 2247
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm
Contact:

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by frank k »

auto wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:27 pm ...
KN Pe jhana commentary
https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-pe/jhana/index.html

niramisa, in contrast to sa-misa (pleasures connected to the flesh refer to those based on 5 cords of sensuality), is referring to pleasure that does not depend on the desire for 5 cords of sensual pleasure.

niramisa does not mean one attains a state where the mind becomes divorced from the body.

If you study some of the many sutta references to 'kaya', you'll see where the Buddha often makes clear distinction between bodily and mental.
https://lucid24.org/tped/k/kaya/index.html#kaya
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by bodom »

*MOD NOTE*

All off topic posts and personal attacks have been removed. Please stay on topic and refrain ad hominem posts.


:focus:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

My posts were all deleted somehow, so with moderator permission, I'm reposting some of the points I had made:
User avatar
samseva
Posts: 3045
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

Here is the main point of the first article:
frank wrote:A few hundred years later, Abhidhamma comes along to explain the Buddha's instruction, saying it requires the wisdom of Abhidhamma to explain that concise words of the Buddha in detail:

"When the Buddha says wash in cold water and air dry", what he actually means is:
don't wash in cold water!!
How is that not a false equivalence—where you say the Buddha said "wash a mask in cold water," and you then equate the Abhidhamma of claiming "the Buddha meant don't wash in cold water"? The equivalence is illogical, and doesn't make any sense.

You then move on to Ven. Sujato:
frank wrote:Then Sujato comes along 2500 years after the Buddha, and he explains,

"When the Buddha says wash in cold water and air dry, you can't take it literally, since we know that a king's formal attire is not washed in cold water, and since a face mask is sometimes part of the king's formal attire, therefore you also can not wash the face mask with cold water."

[...]

Conclusion
You see the problem with Sujato's sophistry?
As with the Abhidhamma and the rest of the article—you ridicule and criticize, yet you don't explain how the Abhidhamma has said "the Buddha meant don't wash in cold water."

How is the article not heavily biased? In it, you don't try to paint the Abhidhamma in a negative light, and similarly with Ven. Sujato—with the use of a false metaphor, even a bit?
Last edited by samseva on Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:36 pm, edited 7 times in total.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:38 am KN Pe jhana commentary
https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-pe/jhana/index.html
Ok, it comments same way what is written in standard 3rd jhana.
frank k wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:38 am niramisa, in contrast to sa-misa (pleasures connected to the flesh refer to those based on 5 cords of sensuality), is referring to pleasure that does not depend on the desire for 5 cords of sensual pleasure.
5 cords of sensuality is kāmaguṇā. 5 cords stimulate the mind based on past kamma, the idea is you should not then indulge to add new kamma. The pleasure you refer what doesn't depend on 5 cords refer to not making any new kamma. The pain what is felt rises because of past deeds and the escape from it is by making new kamma of same kind or by attaining concentration what is same kind, the nimitta what denotes the proximity of concentration is based on greed, hatred and delusion.
In other words, the rūpa(deeds done: sights, smells, tastes, touches, sounds) of jhāna is related to the sensuous world, like Dhammasaṅgaṇī(Rūpavibhatti) claims,
https://suttacentral.net/ds2.2.3/en/rhysdavids_litt wrote: All form is that which is
..
related to the universe of sense,
not related to the universe of form,
nor to that of the formless,
frank k wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:38 am If you study some of the many sutta references to 'kaya', you'll see where the Buddha often makes clear distinction between bodily and mental.
https://lucid24.org/tped/k/kaya/index.html#kaya
add one more, 'deha' = body.
In blog you wrote: "This reference is especially important because it shows the body of girl as kāma".
You must make discernment that the body of girl is adapted as kāma and that these objects are associated with sense pleasures by Ariyan disciples. A way to figure what the term 'related' could mean in 'jhana object related to the sensuous world'.
https://suttacentral.net/kv8.4/en/aung-rhysdavids wrote: Controverted Point: Whether the subjective sense-desires or the objective five fields of sense constitute kāma's?
..
Theravādin: But was it not also said by the Exalted One:

“There are these fivefold pleasures of sense, bhikkhus: which are the five? Objects desirable,… adapted to sense-desires (kāma), and seductive are cognizable by sight, hearing, etc.… five kinds of objects associated with sense-pleasure. Nevertheless, bhikkhus, these are not sense-desires; they are called in the Ariyan discipline objects of sense-pleasures (kāmaguṇā). For kāma is a man's lustful intention”;

“The manifold of objects in the world—
This in itself is not `desires of sense.’
Lustful intention is man's sense-desires.
That manifold of objects doth endure;
The will thereto the wise exterminate”?

Hence it is wrong to say that just the five kinds of sense-objects constitute sense-desires.
girls body is kāma is wrong to say because it misses a distinction.
the verses are here too,
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.34/en/sujato wrote:“The world’s pretty things aren’t sensual pleasures.
“Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke,
Greedy intention is a person’s sensual pleasure.
Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo;
The world’s pretty things stay just as they are,
Tiṭṭhanti citrāni tatheva loke,
but a wise one removes desire for them.
Athettha dhīrā vinayanti chandaṁ.
Post Reply