simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

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samseva
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:17 pm Yes , the process according to Buddha ,
Feeling Perception(Cognition) Volition .
You get to notice those sensation feeling afterwards , the after effects .
Cognition is viññāṇa. Perception is saññā. I'm talking about vedanā and saññā.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by asahi »

samseva wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:22 pm
asahi wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 1:18 pm The vedana do arises first according to sequence , the cognition of the after effect happens later . 😃
Quote a Sutta.

And I didn't say anything about cognition—I said sañña (perception) and vedanā (feeling).
For example , this sutta says , contact is a condition for feeling to arise , thereafter , craving comes into being . The first thing happens after contact is feeling , then perception of feeling , then craving on feeling happens .



https://suttacentral.net/sn12.4/en/sujato

Then Vipassī thought: ‘When what exists is there craving? What is a condition for craving?’ Then, through proper attention, Vipassī comprehended with wisdom: ‘When feeling exists there’s craving. Feeling is a condition for craving.’

Then Vipassī thought: ‘When what exists is there feeling? What is a condition for feeling?’ Then, through proper attention, Vipassī comprehended with wisdom: ‘When contact exists there’s feeling. Contact is a condition for feeling.’
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:00 am But I don't think you're catching my main point.
I think yes, i didn't.
frank k wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:00 am The point about that girl, is the sutta passage is explicitly using the terms kaya, rupa, and same words used for 9 cemetary stages.
So you can not substitute "personal experience" for kaya there, you can no substitute "vision" for "rupa". It's explicitly using kaya and rupa in the sense of the physical body made up of 4 elements.
I agree that the kaya, rupa, sarira, deha are the same.
frank k wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:00 am The point of that kaya research page is to show that the Buddha frequently uses those terms rupa, kaya, mano, citta, to clearly differentiate mind from body, and you (Sujato) can't start changing the dictionary and plug in your biased views on jhana whenever you want, it makes the suttas incoherent.
Yes
frank k wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:00 am The KN Pe passage I pointed you to, was not to check 3rd jhana and see what they're interpretation is, you're supposed to look at all 4 jhanas and see that they explicitly designate piti and sukha as bodily and/or mental. Point being the BUddha, and commentators, were carefully distinguishing between mind and body for various jhana factors, and you can't have a rogue translator just start plugging whatever metaphorical value they want for kaya, rupa, etc.
yes, 3rd jhana pleasure is what is experienced with the physical body, a body produced by eating porridge. Thanks
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by salayatananirodha »

im just curious has frank k had any encounters with ven sujato, i'm curious what his responses were
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by mikenz66 »

salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:01 am im just curious has frank k had any encounters with ven sujato, i'm curious what his responses were
Here's Ven Dhammanado's handy listing of discussions about such issues on the Sutta Central forum:
viewtopic.php?p=560317#p560317
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Ontheway »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:49 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:01 am im just curious has frank k had any encounters with ven sujato, i'm curious what his responses were
Here's Ven Dhammanado's handy listing of discussions about such issues on the Sutta Central forum:
viewtopic.php?p=560317#p560317
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).
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Mike
The Third Council was mentioned by Bhante Dhammanando above. During the Third Council, Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa established the Pali Tipitaka (Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka) and further uplifted Theravada as Vibhajjavada, that contained the only true Dhamma teachings, as stated in Kathavathu.

Based on Bhante Dhammanando's post, does it indicates that those who rejected the Arahat Moggaliputta Tissa's judgement (a lot here) are wrong?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
BrokenBones
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:37 am
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:49 am
salayatananirodha wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:01 am im just curious has frank k had any encounters with ven sujato, i'm curious what his responses were
Here's Ven Dhammanado's handy listing of discussions about such issues on the Sutta Central forum:
viewtopic.php?p=560317#p560317
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am Here are links to a few of the threads. I'm afraid some are rather lengthy, but you can save time by skipping all the ill-informed posts from the Vimalaramsi and Brasington followers and just attending to the posts of Sylvester, Sujāto and Brahmali (in effect representing the Theravada position as it was at the time of the Third Council), and those of Frank and Silence (in effect representing the position taken at the same council by the Pubbaseliya school).
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Mike
The Third Council was mentioned by Bhante Dhammanando above. During the Third Council, Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa established the Pali Tipitaka (Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka) and further uplifted Theravada as Vibhajjavada, that contained the only true Dhamma teachings, as stated in Kathavathu.

Based on Bhante Dhammanando's post, does it indicates that those who rejected the Arahat Moggaliputta Tissa's judgement (a lot here) are wrong?
Some of the Buddha's last instructions were to take only the Dhamma (only the suttas had been taught at that time) and the vinaya as authoritative... anything that came later with their self declarations of infallibility are nonsense... the Tibetan's use the same tricks all the time.
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samseva
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:09 am anything that came later with their self declarations of infallibility are nonsense
That's your own personal re-wording of it, though.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

samseva wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:09 am anything that came later with their self declarations of infallibility are nonsense
That's your own personal re-wording of it, though.
I'll take the infallibility defence... anybody who doesn't take my words as fact is destined for the hell worlds 🤪

It's not very convincing is it?

Kammic threats are banned on Dhammawheel... but the commentaries throw them around like confetti.

The only words on kamma and consequences that is worth listening to are words directly from the Buddha... nobody else has a clue.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Ontheway »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:02 pm
samseva wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:09 am anything that came later with their self declarations of infallibility are nonsense
That's your own personal re-wording of it, though.
I'll take the infallibility defence... anybody who doesn't take my words as fact is destined for the hell worlds 🤪

It's not very convincing is it?

Kammic threats are banned on Dhammawheel... but the commentaries throw them around like confetti.

The only words on kamma and consequences that is worth listening to are words directly from the Buddha... nobody else has a clue.
So Arahants are not worthy in your eyes? The opinions of Anagami, Sakadagami, and Sotapanna are also not worthy to be listened?

:shrug:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:09 am
Some of the Buddha's last instructions were to take only the Dhamma (only the suttas had been taught at that time) and the vinaya as authoritative... anything that came later with their self declarations of infallibility are nonsense... the Tibetan's use the same tricks all the time.
Not quite. Also anything which accords with the meaning or spirit of the Dhamma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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samseva
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:02 pm [...]
The authors of the Commentaries viewed the Suttas as more important—that's why they called them commentaries.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by mikenz66 »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:37 am The Third Council was mentioned by Bhante Dhammanando above. During the Third Council, Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa established the Pali Tipitaka (Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka) and further uplifted Theravada as Vibhajjavada, that contained the only true Dhamma teachings, as stated in Kathavathu.

Based on Bhante Dhammanando's post, does it indicates that those who rejected the Arahat Moggaliputta Tissa's judgement (a lot here) are wrong?
I can't speak for Ven Dhammanando, and he is out of communication during the rains. However, he has been quite clear that his disagrees with Frank's interpretation, and agrees with the Theravada interpretation of the Third council.
Dhammanando wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:55 pm ...
frank k wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 pmI'm not trying to engage you in a never ending debate,
Whether you are trying to, or whether you are not trying to, it would be unavoidable if I let myself continue to engage with you, for this is a matter on which my view is settled and on which I'm not open to changing my mind. As far as I can tell this is the case with you too. That is, if you were open to changing your mind, I think your lengthy exchanges on Discourse Central with venerables Sujāto and Brahmali, and Sylvester (especially Sylvester) would have been more than enough to persuade you to do so.
...
However, as far as I can tell, he has been quite careful to not claim that his view is infallible.
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am As at the Third Council, both sides believe their position to be the correct reading of the suttas and neither side is basing its case on later works like the Visuddhimagga. Unfortunately one of the two Pubbaseliya posters (yes, I mean you, Frank!) insists on begging the question by calling his own view "the straight EBT interpretation", and poisoning the well (and begging the question) by dubbing his opponents' view "the revised Visuddhimagga interpretation".
Personally, I tend to take the approach he suggests earlier in that post:
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am As the disagreement doesn't involve any difference of opinion over how the preliminary practice of samatha-bhāvanā is to be carried out, one always has the option of just going ahead with the work while maintaining an agnostic stance on the contested questions about what jhāna is like.
Clearly, any cultivation of samādhi is a good thing, and personally I tend to take a conservative view of my experiences, since I don't see any serious downside in underestimation, whereas I can see potential issues (at least for me) with overestimation.

:heart:
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:15 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:02 pm
samseva wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:19 am
That's your own personal re-wording of it, though.
I'll take the infallibility defence... anybody who doesn't take my words as fact is destined for the hell worlds 🤪

It's not very convincing is it?

Kammic threats are banned on Dhammawheel... but the commentaries throw them around like confetti.

The only words on kamma and consequences that is worth listening to are words directly from the Buddha... nobody else has a clue.
So Arahants are not worthy in your eyes? The opinions of Anagami, Sakadagami, and Sotapanna are also not worthy to be listened?

:shrug:
Regarding kamma and its consequences? Truly Noble ones wouldn't be making predictions. Only the Buddha.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:28 pm
Ontheway wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:37 am The Third Council was mentioned by Bhante Dhammanando above. During the Third Council, Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa established the Pali Tipitaka (Sutta Pitaka, Vinaya Pitaka, and Abhidhamma Pitaka) and further uplifted Theravada as Vibhajjavada, that contained the only true Dhamma teachings, as stated in Kathavathu.

Based on Bhante Dhammanando's post, does it indicates that those who rejected the Arahat Moggaliputta Tissa's judgement (a lot here) are wrong?
I can't speak for Ven Dhammanando, and he is out of communication during the rains. However, he has been quite clear that his disagrees with Frank's interpretation, and agrees with the Theravada interpretation of the Third council.
Dhammanando wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 11:55 pm ...
frank k wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 3:30 pmI'm not trying to engage you in a never ending debate,

...
However, as far as I can tell, he has been quite careful to not claim that his view is infallible.
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am As at the Third Council, both sides believe their position to be the correct reading of the suttas and neither side is basing its case on later works like the Visuddhimagga. Unfortunately one of the two Pubbaseliya posters (yes, I mean you, Frank!) insists on begging the question by calling his own view "the straight EBT interpretation", and poisoning the well (and begging the question) by dubbing his opponents' view "the revised Visuddhimagga interpretation".
Personally, I tend to take the approach he suggests earlier in that post:
Dhammanando wrote: Wed May 13, 2020 11:23 am As the disagreement doesn't involve any difference of opinion over how the preliminary practice of samatha-bhāvanā is to be carried out, one always has the option of just going ahead with the work while maintaining an agnostic stance on the contested questions about what jhāna is like.
Clearly, any cultivation of samādhi is a good thing, and personally I tend to take a conservative view of my experiences, since I don't see any serious downside in underestimation, whereas I can see potential issues (at least for me) with overestimation.

:heart:
Mike
Hi Mike

There are huge differences in the 'preliminary'... intention, vittaka, vicara, nimitta to be cultivated, clear direction of what you're trying to achieve etc. some think that concentration on a nasal sensation which matures into a shimmering light where the body disappears is right concentration some think that that's not quite what the Buddha taught.

You copy and paste the same under/over estimation piece in every jhana thread. It doesn't really make sense, if you don't develop enough wisdom to know where you are at, then you're in big trouble... so many wrong turns. Imagine underestimating the depth of a deep sea dive... you'd certainly lose perception of the body... permanently... better to know where you're at, why you're there and what you're aiming for.
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