simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

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samseva
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

frank, your second article is much better (I detested the first, but the second was decent, although still with a lot of harsh/divisive speech).

I'd like to make sure I've understood your point in the article:
frank wrote:In other articles I've already shown the fallacy of Sujato's justification for turning the Buddha's explicit qualification in standard third jhana formula, that sukha (bliss) is experienced with the body (as opposed to the mind).
So, is your point of view that that the correct jhāna description is that sukha is experienced by the mind, but that Ven. Sujato incorrectly says it's experienced by the body?
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

Isn't it the total opposite?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:44 pm Isn't it the total opposite?
Said by whom—Suttas, Ven. Sujato, frank?
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

Frank says body, not (only) mind, AFAIK. This is an argument over if kāyena means "via the (physical) body" or "mentally (without experience of the body)" via it meaning "personally." It's over if kāyena necessarily implies a bodily sensation.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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samseva
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

From the second article:
frank wrote:In other articles I've already shown the fallacy of Sujato's justification for turning the Buddha's explicit qualification in standard third jhana formula, that sukha (bliss) is experienced with the body (as opposed to the mind).
From this thread:
frank k wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:09 am Third jhana is clearly a situation where the Buddha is specifically saying the sukha is bodily, as opposed to mental or metaphorical.
The article seems to say Ven. Sujato makes the fallacy of making sukha bodily (rather than of the mind). But frank's post says the opposite.

frank:
- In jhāna 1-2, do you think sukha is bodily or mental?
- In jhāna 3-4, do you think sukha is bodily or mental?
- What do you think Ven. Sujato says, regarding sukha in jhāna 1-2 and 3-4?
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:58 pm Frank says body, not (only) mind, AFAIK. This is an argument over if kāyena means "via the (physical) body" or "mentally (without experience of the body)" via it meaning "personally." It's over if kāyena necessarily implies a bodily sensation.
Sukha is a feeling/sensation (vedanā), and is part of the feeling aggregate (vedanā-kkhandha). It's not perception of the body, which would be part of the perception aggregate (saññā-kkhandha).

And although sukha is a bodily pleasant feeling, it's not the body, nor is it perception of the body (which would again fall under saññā-kkhandha). Also, yes, sukha is a bodily pleasant feeling that is caused by the body, but that doesn't mean it is the body, or is perception of the body.

Furthermore, sukha—being part of the feeling aggregate (vedanā-kkhanda)—isn't a physical/material dhamma, but a mental one.

How can sukha be considered physical/material/bodily?
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:58 pm or "mentally (without experience of the body)"
You mean perception of the body?
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

Buddhists have been fighting over whether sukha in the third dhyāna is a "bodily sensation" or not since at least the time of the Dārṣṭāntikas and Vaibhāṣikas. There is a huge debate about this in Abhidharmakośabhāṣya and a small part of it is copied out here. The debate all boils down to one camp interpreting sukha in the third dhyāna as "vedanāsukha" of the manaskāya and the other camp interpreting the same sukha as praśrabdhikāya (of the rūpakāya).
samseva wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:06 amYou mean perception of the body?
I actually mean experience of the body, but the two go hand-in-hand.

Once we realize that "Dārṣṭāntika vs Vaibhāṣika" is an inter-Sarvāstivādin debate, we see how this fight can actually both split a sect right down the middle and not at all. These aren't even two very different schools having this argument. It's not like Mahāsāṃghikas fighting with Sthaviravādins. These people have the same recensions of the same sūtras, the same vinaya observance, lived in the same monasteries, etc., and did not agree on this. Now, the Dārṣṭāntikas and Vaibhāṣikas had more differences than what they believed concerning the third dhyāna, but certainly this was one of those fights splitting the Sarvāstivādin sect while also not splitting them at all. After all, there is no independent Sautrāntika/Dārṣṭāntikas tradition outside of Sarvāstivāda. Certainly, we can imagine similar groups in other schools who similarly rejected the treatises of their elders, but there is no independent non-Sarvāstivādin Sautrāntika sect all the same.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

(delete)
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote:[...]
Okay, but if you simply take the Suttas, and the five khandha/Five Groups of Existence—sukha can only be in one of those. All of existence falls in those five groups:
rūpa-kkhandha / Corporeality
vedanā-kkhandha / Feeling
saññā-kkhandha / Perception
sankhāra-kkhandha / Mental-formations
viññāṇa-kkhandha / Consciousness
sukha is a mental dhamma. Even if it is a pleasant bodily feeling, sukha is caused by the body—but sukha is not bodily.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

You'll have to take it up with the Sautrāntikas. They have a theory about particles of the air element, caused by the dhyāna, interacting internally against the frame of the body, as far as I can work it out. This later turns into a full-blown pseudo-materialism that Tibetan schools inherit. You can see that materialism reflected here from this cut-and-pasted tantric exegesis of their interpretation of the physical dependent origination of the physical body starting at the section "The dependent origination of the human body begins with the ālayavijñāna mounted upon what is known as the great prāṇavāyu..." The entire exegesis is largely to do with the interaction of the elements, in particular the airy particles of the mind: "The mind [being] not differentiable from the vāyu (aka winds or airs) in any meaningful way." So we see that in later Buddhism, the mind becomes "physical" and you directly observe the physicality of your mind during ānāpānasmṛti. Quite a different take on things.

For more on the proto-materialism, see Abhidharmakośakārikā vol 4 pages 1239-1241. Everything eventually becomes "corporeal" to some Buddhists.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by asahi »

samseva wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:48 am sukha is a mental dhamma. Even if it is a pleasant bodily feeling, sukha is caused by the body—but sukha is not bodily.
Hi , do you happen to take the sukha here same as pleasant bodily feeling that felt in 3rd jhana ? Or you regard sukha felt in the mental in 3rd jhana ?
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

asahi wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:54 am
samseva wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:48 am sukha is a mental dhamma. Even if it is a pleasant bodily feeling, sukha is caused by the body—but sukha is not bodily.
Hi , do you happen to take the sukha here same as pleasant bodily feeling that felt in 3rd jhana ? Or you regard sukha felt in the mental in 3rd jhana ?
Not matter what I reply, sukha is a mental dhamma—not a physical/material dhamma.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by samseva »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:48 am For more on the proto-materialism, see Abhidharmakośakārikā vol 4 pages 1239-1241. Everything eventual becomes "corporeal" to some Buddhists.
I'm not interested in proto-materialism. I'm interested in the five khandha, exactly as described in the Suttas.

All of existence is in those five groups.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by frank k »

auto wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:08 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 10:38 am KN Pe jhana commentary
https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-pe/jhana/index.html
Ok, it comments same way what is written in standard 3rd jhana.
...

Hence it is wrong to say that just the five kinds of sense-objects constitute sense-desires.
girls body is kāma is wrong to say because it misses a distinction.
...

Yes, thanks for correcting that, I've fixed that page so it will show on the next site update that the girl's body is the object of kama and 5kg.
But I don't think you're catching my main point.

The point about that girl, is the sutta passage is explicitly using the terms kaya, rupa, and same words used for 9 cemetary stages.
So you can not substitute "personal experience" for kaya there, you can no substitute "vision" for "rupa". It's explicitly using kaya and rupa in the sense of the physical body made up of 4 elements.
The point of that kaya research page is to show that the Buddha frequently uses those terms rupa, kaya, mano, citta, to clearly differentiate mind from body, and you (Sujato) can't start changing the dictionary and plug in your biased views on jhana whenever you want, it makes the suttas incoherent.

The KN Pe passage I pointed you to, was not to check 3rd jhana and see what they're interpretation is, you're supposed to look at all 4 jhanas and see that they explicitly designate piti and sukha as bodily and/or mental. Point being the BUddha, and commentators, were carefully distinguishing between mind and body for various jhana factors, and you can't have a rogue translator just start plugging whatever metaphorical value they want for kaya, rupa, etc.
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Re: simile of the face mask, the difference between the Buddha, Abhidhamma, and Sujato

Post by Coëmgenu »

samseva wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:58 amI'm not interested in proto-materialism. I'm interested in the five khandha [...]
I appreciate you might not be interested in the theories of a sect that complicate your own theses, but it's there to be read, reckoned with, accepted or rejected, etc. If you don't expose yourself to other ideas, you don't know how sukha can be "bodily" according to the exegeses of these people, and then you will be unable to communicate with them, simply saying things like "Not matter what I reply, sukha is" etc., etc., which doesn't convince many people as an argument, truth be told.

The sukha in the third dhyāna, according to the Sautrāntikas, is caused by the airy particles (of the mind) brushing against the frame of the body internally, which would be to-do with the aggregates, in particular "form."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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