The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Jack19990101
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Jack19990101 »

Goofaholix wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:51 pm
Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:48 am I heard, too, about this statement 'self is conceptual.'
I am not sure it is true tho. Maybe to a degree it makes sense but -
thinking of animals or babies, they don't have conceptual mind, but they are full of self-preservations.
I would say that this is Bhava Tanha, this craving for ones own preservation runs on instinct. I don't think self view is required for this instinct to function, though it will fuel self view.
You have slightly switched the verbose from self to self view - self attachment eradication is end of path and self view eradication is start of the path.

Bhava Tanha is the gap between a formless mind and a mind of form. It is a being attachment which equals self attachment.
i am not fully sure about what instinct entitles of, but in my understanding, babies and animals are in unstoppable urge looking for food upon hunger. They only stop when hunger is gone or being tired out.
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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

Jack19990101 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:14 pm You have slightly switched the verbose from self to self view
Self is a view, we view something that is not self as self, so the two are synonymous.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:55 pm look into this,
patthana light by nanavamsa pdf18 wrote:1. The method of identity (ekatta). In a being in the round of rebirths, except for the time of taking rebirth as
a non-percipient being (asaññasatta), all mentalities are linked to each other by repeated arising and passing
away. So if one understands that the rounds of rebirth are a continued series of arising and passing mental
phenomena we call that he knows the method of identity.

2. The method of diversity (nānatta). If one understands that even though the round of rebirths is the same
series of arising and passing away of mentality, the arising of one consciousness and another consciousness
is different, as well as that they have different functions and arise separately, he understands the method of
diversity. This knowledge destroys a belief in a Creator and thinking that in previous and next life there is
same ‘I’.
Nothing there suggests to practise viewing the 5 aggregates as not self while simultaneously believing there must be something else that is a self.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
auto
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:48 pm Nothing there suggests to practise viewing the 5 aggregates as not self while simultaneously believing there must be something else that is a self.
you don't have to believe in self.
Have you felt the feeling of nostalgy after something reminds you of childhood activity? sense of self works the same. When thinking about self then the sense of self can arise.
What's important is the mind what knows this arising and then tracing this mind via sense of self. Making it as your practice, regularly coming back to your head space to the point you eventually realize the space itself, which is simply the sense of room or spatiality. There are tons of things if you hear the description then you might already know without prior cultivation and can skip those and continue from max grade. Just saying 'there is no self to begin with' sounds like useless, what exactly you do there or how i could relate to it like one could relate to being aware and cultivating it? what these people do is they then go talk on unrelated grindy dry practice too with no particular purpose or signs of where it leads.

How hard is practice? i tell my friend to be aware. What i get as a response is weird face of what the heck i am talking about.. and he continues with his lucid dreaming content. Otherwords lucid dreaming is not recognized as something you could also do in waking state, the lucidity of lucid dream itself is not mentally comprehended.
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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:24 pm you don't have to believe in self.
That goes without saying.
auto wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:24 pm Have you felt the feeling of nostalgy after something reminds you of childhood activity? sense of self works the same. When thinking about self then the sense of self can arise.
yes, and as the sense of sense rises via the aggregates we reflect that it is not self.
auto wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:24 pm What's important is the mind what knows this arising and then tracing this mind via sense of self. Making it as your practice, regularly coming back to your head space to the point you eventually realize the space itself, which is simply the sense of room or spatiality. There are tons of things if you hear the description then you might already know without prior cultivation and can skip those and continue from max grade.

Just saying 'there is no self to begin with' sounds like useless, what exactly you do there or how i could relate to it like one could relate to being aware and cultivating it?
It sounds like you are practicing Advaita Vedanta
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
auto
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:56 pm It sounds like you are practicing Advaita Vedanta
Wiki about advaita vedanta, i agree with what i read. I don't see how it contradicts budhism, if someone says it does.
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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:21 pm Wiki about advaita vedanta, i agree with what i read. I don't see how it contradicts budhism, if someone says it does.
Since you are in Wikipedia you might want to check out...
the goal of Buddhism is to overcome suffering (duḥkha) caused by desire and ignorance of reality's true nature, including impermanence (anicca) and the non-existence of the self (anattā).
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

And
Advaita Vedānta holds the premise, "Soul exists, and Soul (or self, Atman) is a self evident truth". Buddhism, in contrast, holds the premise, "Atman does not exist, and An-atman (or Anatta, non-self) is self evident"
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_ ... m_Buddhism
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
auto
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:38 am
auto wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:21 pm Wiki about advaita vedanta, i agree with what i read. I don't see how it contradicts budhism, if someone says it does.
Since you are in Wikipedia you might want to check out...
wrote:the goal of Buddhism is to overcome suffering (duḥkha) caused by desire and ignorance of reality's true nature, including impermanence (anicca) and the non-existence of the self (anattā).
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism

And
wrote:Advaita Vedānta holds the premise, "Soul exists, and Soul (or self, Atman) is a self evident truth". Buddhism, in contrast, holds the premise, "Atman does not exist, and An-atman (or Anatta, non-self) is self evident"
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_ ... m_Buddhism
i read some in this link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta
Whereas the links you showing contain blasphemy, like bad summary of someone's interpretations. Edit: Ok they are on same wiki page i see. So i guess i don't agree with budhism.
Do i need go away from this forum :(
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

https://www.thenazareneway.com/gita_chapter_12.htm wrote:One who does not hate any creature, who is friendly and compassionate, free from (the notion of) "I" and "my", even-minded in pain and pleasure, forgiving; and (12.13)
any contradictions?
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:03 pm Whereas the links you showing contain blasphemy,
Wikipedia isn't perfect but thats laying it on pretty thick, who are you to judge?
auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:03 pm like bad summary of someone's interpretations. Edit: Ok they are on same wiki page i see. So i guess i don't agree with budhism.
Do i need go away from this forum :(
No, but if after 4 years on this board the basics of Buddhism are a surprise I don't know what to tell you.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:28 pm any contradictions?
With a quick skim nothing jumps out as being Buddhism-like.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
auto
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:46 pm No, but if after 4 years on this board the basics of Buddhism are a surprise I don't know what to tell you.
Its quite interesting how the buddhist doctrine in forums is opposite to what i experience in practice. Thus, i can't buy into no-self other than i, me notions are regards to the greed, hate, delusion.
Nothing in Sutta suggest no-self as like there is no seer or knower.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.10/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Suppose there was a large heap of sand at the crossroads. And a cart or chariot were to come by from the east, west, north, or south and destroy that heap of sand.

In the same way, when a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body, feelings, mind, or principles, they destroy bad, unskillful qualities.”
therefore the bad(in my opinion) summary of buddhist doctine in wikipedia: non-existence of self.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:26 pm
Its quite interesting how the buddhist doctrine in forums is opposite to what i experience in practice. Thus, i can't buy into no-self other than i, me notions are regards to the greed, hate, delusion.
Nothing in Sutta suggest no-self as like there is no seer or knower.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.10/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:Suppose there was a large heap of sand at the crossroads. And a cart or chariot were to come by from the east, west, north, or south and destroy that heap of sand.

In the same way, when a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body, feelings, mind, or principles, they destroy bad, unskillful qualities.”
therefore the bad(in my opinion) summary of buddhist doctine in wikipedia: non-existence of self.
Have you read 'the not-self strategy' by Thanissaro?

You may find it interesting

https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... rategy.pdf
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:26 pm Its quite interesting how the buddhist doctrine in forums is opposite to what i experience in practice. Thus, i can't buy into no-self other than i, me notions are regards to the greed, hate, delusion.
Nothing in Sutta suggest no-self as like there is no seer or knower.
It's common for practitioners when they become aware of the knower to feel it's so compelling that they identify with it and regard it as self. Buddhist practice would have us to see this as also impermenent, unsatisfactory, and not self. Rather than allowing ourselves to get attached to it and stall our progress we should continue to free ourselves from that attachment by examining and questioning its nature objectively.

FWIW In Advaita Vedanta one would also seek to free oneself from this identification with the knower, though here the idea is to replace it with the True Self aka God.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
auto
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:09 pm
auto wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:26 pm Its quite interesting how the buddhist doctrine in forums is opposite to what i experience in practice. Thus, i can't buy into no-self other than i, me notions are regards to the greed, hate, delusion.
Nothing in Sutta suggest no-self as like there is no seer or knower.
It's common for practitioners when they become aware of the knower to feel it's so compelling that they identify with it and regard it as self. Buddhist practice would have us to see this as also impermenent, unsatisfactory, and not self. Rather than allowing ourselves to get attached to it and stall our progress we should continue to free ourselves from that attachment by examining and questioning its nature objectively.

FWIW In Advaita Vedanta one would also seek to free oneself from this identification with the knower, though here the idea is to replace it with the True Self aka God.
why not try concentrate on the knower to achieve the union or non-separation by removing that what hinder the union - what doesn't allow to view reality from 0 point, immediate knowledge without inference? something like Krishnamurties were talking about, but instead of just viewing but from experimental grounds.

the disidentification is after one experiencing the permanent still awareness, before one just doesn't know about the impermanence or no selfness of self, hence the small self. That i think present what is experimental and what is different from watching or noting objects passing by or inferring 3 characteristics..
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