The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
auto
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:25 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:22 pm

Eye consciousness.
wow, never come up with that myself.
This is why nobody takes you seriously.
read my further explanation. epic fail
Last edited by auto on Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:25 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:25 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:24 pm
wow, never come up with that myself.
This is why nobody takes you seriously.
read my further explanation.
I’d rather you responded to my post properly, instead of the immature sarcasm.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:27 pm .
ok
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:27 pm .
ok
I would say at least you tried, but you didn’t.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:04 pm Who sees? why do you need do these things if there is no self to begin with? or you meanwhile have realized that the anatta refers to the aggregates being not self and not refutation of the atta?
You rightly point out that the Buddha taught that the aggregates are not self, not that there is no self. He also didn't provide any definition of "self", nor any indication there was such a thing, if it existed and had any importance I'd think he would.

Some people seem to think that they can realistically practice seeing aggregates as not self while still believing that somehow, somewhere there is self, however you want to define it. This strikes me as like what children do when making a promise while crossing their fingers behind their back to negate the promise, its not honest and it doesn't work

Yes, what I experience day to day appears to be a lot like a continuous self and it's really compelling, do I want to dismantle my identification with it? or reinforce belief in it? we can't have it both ways.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Goofaholix wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:32 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:04 pm Who sees? why do you need do these things if there is no self to begin with? or you meanwhile have realized that the anatta refers to the aggregates being not self and not refutation of the atta?
You rightly point out that the Buddha taught that the aggregates are not self, not that there is no self. He also didn't provide any definition of "self", nor any indication there was such a thing, if it existed and had any importance I'd think he would.
..
Sutta what suggests continuity,
https://suttacentral.net/mn143/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And when the venerables Sāriputta and Ānanda had given the householder Anāthapiṇḍika this advice they got up from their seat and left. Not long after they had left, Anāthapiṇḍika passed away and was reborn in the host of Joyful Gods.

Then, late at night, the glorious god Anāthapiṇḍika, lighting up the entire Jeta’s Grove, went up to the Buddha, bowed, stood to one side, and addressed the Buddha in verse:

“This is indeed that Jeta’s Grove,
frequented by the Saṅgha of hermits,
where the King of Dhamma stayed:
it brings me joy!
..
wrote: ..
When he had spoken, Venerable Ānanda said to the Buddha:

“Sir, that god must surely have been Anāthapiṇḍika. For the householder Anāthapiṇḍika was devoted to Venerable Sāriputta.”
and its not eye consciousness hehe.

also,
wrote:“Good, good, Ānanda. You’ve reached the logical conclusion, as far as logic goes. For that was indeed the god Anāthapiṇḍika.”
i presume disintegration of a body is on a scale of day to day 'continues self' knowledge.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Goofaholix wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:32 pm Yes, what I experience day to day appears to be a lot like a continuous self and it's really compelling, do I want to dismantle my identification with it? or reinforce belief in it? we can't have it both ways.
Its actually quite rare to come aware. And likely it doesn't even occur to give attention to if not pointed out or read about it. Yet it is rare to, by yourself randomly(without pointed out), come aware and notice it.

And it is to be reinforced, cultivated, and it can be concentrated upon eventually.
Last edited by auto on Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:45 pm Sutta what suggests continuity,
A whole truckload of suttas refer to rebirth and therefore suggest continuity.

It really doesn't matter that some part of Anāthapiṇḍika the god has some continuity from some part of Anāthapiṇḍika the man, the point is we don't identify with it, we don't attach to it, we don't infer a metaphysical doctrine from it, we don't regress into Brahmanism because of it.

One can't in all honesty reflect on current experience as not self while believing in a future self, it's like making a promise with ones fingers crossed behind ones back.

Not self and rebirth don't sit well together, granted, but It's a common view that kamma in this life creates future rebirth and kamma is not self.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Goofaholix wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:01 pm .
He wouldn't have come god if the clinging to khandas and delighting in them would have been strong, it would have caused rebirth in hell and perhaps without the perception of earth. I am not retreating from this narrative to some ultimate knowledge of there is no beings, rather when there is urge then i need think this urge is because i have under developed mind and body and thus not know any better.
Goofaholix wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:01 pmOne can't in all honesty reflect on current experience as not self while believing in a future self, it's like making a promise with ones fingers crossed behind ones back.
if there is delight in khandhas, then by developing mind and body one will stop clinging because mind and body become strong and one can see these are khandhas and not me, but if weak then i am not even concerned to start practice.
Other words one can know that my current self is not the correct one, that if i remove defilement then i am more sober and know more, make better choices, and as a result there is better gati/destiny.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:20 pm Other words one can know that my current self is not the correct one
Yes, but assuming that there must be another one is counter productive and not part of the Buddhas teaching.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:31 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:30 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:27 pm .
ok
I would say at least you tried, but you didn’t.
with the eye consciousness
visuddhimagga by Nanamoli pdf p80 wrote:53. (b) Now, as regards the virtue of restraint of faculties shown next to that in the
way beginning, “on seeing a visible object with the eye,” herein he is a bhikkhu
established in the virtue of Pátimokkha restraint. On seeing a visible object with the eye:
on seeing a visible object with the eye-consciousness that is capable of seeing visible
objects and has borrowed the name “eye” from its instrument. But the Ancients (poráóá)
said: “The eye does not see a visible object because it has no mind. The mind does not
see because it has no eyes. But when there is the impingement of door and object he
sees by means of the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its physical basis. Now,
(an idiom) such as this is called an ‘accessory locution’ (sasambhárakathá), like ‘He shot
him with his bow,’ and so on. So the meaning here is this: ‘On seeing a visible object
with eye-consciousness.’”14
i was wrong too, but in an other matter
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Goofaholix wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:29 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:20 pm Other words one can know that my current self is not the correct one
Yes, but assuming that there must be another one is counter productive and not part of the Buddhas teaching.
There are meditations what get into deeper layers than other. One can be positive person but still go to hell because that positivity is not making more(by amount) sukha over time. Jains in Sutta are accused of doing temporal spurts and then loosing all gains.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:45 pm There are meditations what get into deeper layers than other.
and there are meditations that reinforce delusion.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:54 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:45 pm There are meditations what get into deeper layers than other.
and there are meditations that reinforce delusion.
Mostly it is about wanting too little. Not knowing about psychic centers in body. And that the life giving substance can be sublimated. Possibility of reverse aging etc.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:29 pm
auto wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:20 pm Other words one can know that my current self is not the correct one
Yes, but assuming that there must be another one is counter productive and not part of the Buddhas teaching.
look into this,
patthana light by nanavamsa pdf18 wrote:1. The method of identity (ekatta). In a being in the round of rebirths, except for the time of taking rebirth as
a non-percipient being (asaññasatta), all mentalities are linked to each other by repeated arising and passing
away. So if one understands that the rounds of rebirth are a continued series of arising and passing mental
phenomena we call that he knows the method of identity.

2. The method of diversity (nānatta). If one understands that even though the round of rebirths is the same
series of arising and passing away of mentality, the arising of one consciousness and another consciousness
is different, as well as that they have different functions and arise separately, he understands the method of
diversity. This knowledge destroys a belief in a Creator and thinking that in previous and next life there is
same ‘I’.
got to understand both of the above,
wrote:Knowing the method of identity leads to the elimination of belief in annihilation (uccheda diṭṭhi), and
knowing the method of diversity – to the elimination of belief in persisting ego (sassata diṭṭhi).
maybe i quoted a bit out of context. But it should make things easier to grasp on what way the 'there is no self to begin with' is weird.
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