The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Goofaholix
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:31 pm
https://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors ... rategy.pdf

Missed your post. No i haven't read it properly* i haven't read it.
pretty good
Here's a few more from this article...
In fact,
questions as to whether there is or is not a self fall into the category of those
deserving to be put aside. Questions framed in those terms, instead of aiding in
the end of stress, simply act as fetters and entanglements, interfering with the
path.
...
Second, the passage shows that such questions as “Is there a self?” “Is there
no self?” “Am I?” “Am I not?” “What am I?” all fall into the category of
questions that should consistently be put aside, regardless of who asks them.
...
However, the statement,
“There is a self” conforms with eternalism in that it shares the same practical
drawbacks as an eternalist view. It cannot be used as part of the strategy for
putting an end to stress because, in holding to this sort of view, there is a double
level of attachment: to the view itself, and to the objects the view identifies as
self. This is why the Buddha so frequently deconstructed the view of an existing
self in order to help his listeners advance along the path.
...
If, on the other hand, he had held to the doctrine that there is a self, then
whatever he identified as self could not be regarded as not-self, and so would
have been left as an object of clinging, and thus a remaining area of limitation
and stress.
...
Once the goal is attained with the ending of action, all strategies are dropped.
As we have noted, even the knowledge, “All phenomena are not-self” does not
apply once there is a full plunge into unbinding. However, that does not mean
that what lies beyond the range of that knowledge should be perceived as self.
To believe that it does would be to fall into the wrong view that the Buddha
avoided by not answering Vacchagotta’s first question.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
auto
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:59 pm Yes, people really need to go back to the suttas
Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: ..To state that there is a self would not be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self. (4) To tell Vacchagotta that there is no self would have left him even more bewildered than he already was."
So in the Vacchagotta sutta the Buddha makes clear that:

no-self is the annihilationist doctrine and is wrong view

and

people who hold a no-self view are generally bewildered

We find both these statements to be true when discussing with people who hold various no-self positions and try to argue this is Buddha dhamma instead of the correct approach which is to use the not-self teaching as a method.
I would think so too that it is a method.
A teaching to take characteristic of conditioned things as an object of concentration instead of dwelling in absorption. The no self would point towards abodes where mind is freed from the senses.
I would think no-selfers are disgusted by living, they want to escape sensual desire, sensual desire doesn't exist in immaterial realm, so it sounds like a good destination.
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Goofaholix
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Location: New Zealand

Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

auto wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:40 pm I would think no-selfers are disgusted by living, they want to escape sensual desire, sensual desire doesn't exist in immaterial realm, so it sounds like a good destination.
Gaining freedom from craving sensual desire is foundational to the purpose of Buddhism ie gaining freedom from Dukkha, it works together with understanding all phenomena as not self but not in the way you describe.

Clinging to sensual desire causes Dukkha, identifying with phenomena as self causes Dukkha. They feed off each other but are two different things.

Craving sensual desire continues to propel more and more Dukkha, while self view misunderstands and identifies with it.

More Buddhism 101.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
auto
Posts: 4582
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by auto »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 6:58 pm ..
its big topic.
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