The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Cause_and_Effect
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The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

We know that all phenomena are not-self and to be abandoned.
However there are clearly degrees of 'self' even if ultimately of a provisional form.

I.e. Ones hair is percevlived to be less 'self' than ones hands and are shed continuously and cut numerous times. We wield power over our hands and use them. One might argue that the cells in the hand and bone renew themselves also after many years but the designation of a 'hand' is maintained until we depart the body.

Likewise we let go of unskillful qualities and defilements and develop skillful qualities of mind and hold them to be closer to our 'self' although they are ultimately to be transcended also.

So is there a use in a designation and degrees of a 'provisional self' in terms of mental factors and the path as we observe for the physical body also?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm ... there are clearly degrees of 'self' even if ultimately of a provisional form.
...


Agreed.

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𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm degrees of 'self' even if ultimately of a provisional form.
degrees of self are not self
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Friends, the notion ‘I am’ has not yet vanished in me in relation to these five aggregates subject to clinging, but I do not regard anything among them as ‘This I am.’

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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm We know that all phenomena are not-self
No. Its just book reading, therefore a superstition for most, similar to reading about 'god' in a book.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pmHowever there are clearly degrees of 'self' even if ultimately of a provisional form.
No. There are degrees of delusion.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:16 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm degrees of 'self' even if ultimately of a provisional form.
degrees of self are not self
You can call it degrees of not-self also.
Or degrees of 'I am' identifying
The same applies.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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samseva
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:23 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm We know that all phenomena are not-self
No. Its just book reading, therefore a superstition for most, similar to reading about 'god' in a book.
What are you rambling on about? It's litteraly sabbe dhammā anattā.
DooDoot wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:23 pm There are degrees of delusion.
I do agree there are degrees of delusion, though!
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samseva
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by samseva »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm So is there a use in a designation and degrees of a 'provisional self' in terms of mental factors and the path as we observe for the physical body also?
Could you clarify your question? What do you mean by "provisional self"?

There is no self—i.e., anattā—no matter the degree or something being "provisional."
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

samseva wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:35 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm So is there a use in a designation and degrees of a 'provisional self' in terms of mental factors and the path as we observe for the physical body also?
Could you clarify your question? What do you mean by "provisional self"?

There is no self—i.e., anattā—no matter the degree or something being "provisional."
There are degrees of self- identifying, 'I making' and 'mine making', thus degrees of what we consider part of ones 'self'.

On the mental level this corresponds to abandoning defilements of mind (not-self), while cultivating skillful qualities and states of mind (part of the the 'provisional self' or 'the buddhist').

On a physical level there are clearly levels of self-identiying and mine- making.
The clearest examples are those that are not necessary for life are less held to as 'mine'. Ones hair and nails are an easy example and probably why they are part of novice monk 5 contemplations (hair of the body,hair of the head, nails, teeth and skin)

Ones physical head is more closely identified as 'me', 'I am' than ones hands since one can survive a hand or arm amputation. Ones head is necessary to the experience of 'self' and life to continue so would naturally be held closer to a sense of self.

Consciousness of a sensory form is more easily discerned as arising and ceasing such as a sound and ear consciousness. But the witnessing or mind-consciouness may be the hardest to cultivate the not-self perception of as it is generally closer to our sense of identity.

Therefore while all may be not-self on an ultimate level, they are very clearly distinguished on a degree of provisional self identifying.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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samseva
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by samseva »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 am [...]
I'd say most of what you said is correct. We might more intensely view our thoughts and body as "mine," compared to, like you say, our hair. It is a valid distinction. I don't think you'll find much in the Suttas describing this—or how useful the distinction is.

And maybe hair and nails, saliva and so on are outliers compared to the rest, because they fall out. Maybe most people view their body, thoughts, emotions, and so on equally as their's?
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

samseva wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:19 am

I'd say most of what you said is correct. We might more intensely view our thoughts and body as "mine," compared to, like you say, our hair. It is a valid distinction. I don't think you'll find much in the Suttas describing this—or how useful the distinction is.

And maybe hair and nails, saliva and so on are outliers compared to the rest, because they fall out. Maybe most people view their body, thoughts, emotions, and so on equally as their's?
Like many things, it is implied in the suttas. It likely is not spelled out to avoid confusion but much of it is common sense anyway.

My raising it as a discussion was how it has consequences for the practice. I had described how in terms of mental qualities it is clearest this distinction comes in so in this sense, and as far as the range of identifying goes regarding being a 'noble disciple', it is a heart of the practice.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by confusedlayman »

Taking up dhamma creates self illusion?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

confusedlayman wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:55 am Taking up dhamma creates self illusion?
No, not illusion. Necessary and skillful 'I-making' on the path to replace unskillful forms of 'I-making'.

Oneself, indeed, is one’s own protector.
What other protector could there be?
With self-control
One gains a protector hard to obtain.


Dhammapada verse 160


The use of provisional selves is found throughout the Canon and is central to the path until one reaches Arahatship.
To call it all 'self illusion' is a mistaken apprehension of the teaching.

Thanissaro Bhiikkhu also has some good talks on this.



"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Bundokji »

I tend to agree with the OP, but there are two main limitations to this notion:

1- In constructs, certain parts seem more central to the functionality of the designed/intended unit. In a car for instance, the engine is often perceived as more central than a mirror, and this is usually rationalized by comparing the functionality of the car without a mirror with the functionality without an engine. The main problem with this approach is that the engine can still be deconstructed into hundreds of parts, so its centrality is contingent to perceiving it as unit that fits in harmony with other parts to form the ultimate unit (the car). The ultimate unit (the car) is provisional to other cars in the streets to form traffic. This goes on and on.

2- Degrees of self can be a cause for overestimating the importance of certain parts by perceiving them as central, and underestimating other parts. The head, where the brain or mind is perceived to be located is assumed more central than the hand, but imagine a thorn entering your finger would prevent you from sleeping if you do not remove it. The effects of a stressful situation during the day might subside quicker. Death and decay can be said to be a gradual process that often happens under the radar by what we habitually overlook.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by DooDoot »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:13 am No, not illusion. Necessary and skillful 'I-making' on the path
MN 117 says the Path is without asava. Becoming is an asava. Thanissaro's idea of "paradox of becoming" is 100% wrong.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 am There are degrees of self- identifying, 'I making' and 'mine making', thus degrees of what we consider part of ones 'self'.
No. There is only self-identifying, which is "bhava". There is only "I-making". There is no "provisional self". There is only "self-identifying", which is grasping:
MN 44 wrote: There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

MN 44
Just as "not-self" is a superstition for a puthujjana, so is the idea of "provisional self" a delusion & superstition. :smile:
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 amOneself, indeed, is one’s own protector.
What other protector could there be?
With self-control
One gains a protector hard to obtain.

Dhammapada verse 160
The above is conventional language used by a Teacher. It is not a provisional self.
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 amThanissaro Bhiikkhu also has some good talks on this.
Most appear not interested in Thanissaro's ramblings & personal search for the Truth. Its generally a bad path when a young monk starts his monkhood as a translator. From an early age, they start to mistakenly believe they know the truth. The only great thing i have read from Thanissaro is his page 3 to 6 of his Shape of Suffering. Even though I suspect he copied it from my early internet posts, you should definitely read it & start promoting it. :smile:
Thanissaro wrote:1) Ignorance: not seeing things in terms of the four noble truths of stress, its
origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation.
2) Fabrication: the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind.
These processes are of three sorts:
a) bodily fabrication: the in-and-out breath,
b) verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation, and
c) mental fabrication: feeling (feeling tones of pleasure, pain, or neither
pleasure nor pain) and perception (the mental labels applied to the
objects of the senses for the purpose of memory and recognition).
3) Consciousness at the six sense media: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and
intellect.
4) Name-and-form: mental and physical phenomena. Mental phenomena
include:
a) feeling,
b) perception,
c) intention,
d) contact, and
e) attention.
Physical phenomena include the four great elements—the properties
constituting the kinetic sense of the body—and any physical phenomenon derived
from them:
f) earth (solidity),
g) water (liquidity),
h) wind (energy and motion), and
i) fire (warmth).
5) The six internal sense media: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect.
6) Contact at the six sense media. Contact happens when a sense organ meets
with a sense object—for example, the eye meets with a form—conditioning an act
of consciousness at that sense organ. The meeting of all three—the sense organ, the
object, and the act of consciousness—counts as contact.
7) Feeling based on contact at the six sense media.
8) Craving for the objects of the six sense media. This craving can focus on any
of the six sense media, and can take any of three forms:
a) sensuality-craving (craving for sensual plans and resolves),
b) becoming-craving (craving to assume an identity in a world of
experience), and
c) non-becoming-craving (craving for the end of an identity in a world of
experience).
9) Clinging—passion and delight—focused on the five aggregates of form,
feeling, perception, fabrication, and consciousness. This clinging can take any of
four forms:
a) sensuality-clinging,
b) view-clinging,
c) habit-and-practice-clinging, and
d) doctrine-of-self-clinging.
10) Becoming on any of three levels:
a) the level of sensuality,
b) the level of form, and
c) the level of formlessness.
11) Birth: the actual assumption of an identity on any of these three levels.
12) The aging-and-death of that identity, with its attendant sorrow, lamentation,
pain, distress, and despair.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... fering.pdf :bow: :thumbsup:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:22 pm, edited 11 times in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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