The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:07 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:13 am No, not illusion. Necessary and skillful 'I-making' on the path
MN 117 says the Path is without asava. Becoming is an asava. Thanissaro's idea of "paradox of becoming" is 100% wrong.
No. You are conflating and misunderstanding two concepts.

Just because all bhava (becoming) contains asava, does not mean that bhava cannot be used to end asava and reach the final goal. In fact it is the only way. This is the paradox of becoming.

Jhana is a type of becoming that can be used to reach nibbana and end all asava and becoming.
DooDoot wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:07 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 am There are degrees of self- identifying, 'I making' and 'mine making', thus degrees of what we consider part of ones 'self'.
No. There is only self-identifying, which is "bhava". There is only "I-making". There is no "provisional self". There is only "self-identifying", which is grasping:
"There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."


MN 44
'I-making' and self-identitification = provisional self

Taking on an identity as a dhamma-practicioner or Buddhist is also a provisional self designed to lead ultimately to the end of bhava and asava.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:22 am
Are you think of this?
This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.’ The thought occurs to him, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?’ Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. ‘This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.159/en/thanissaro
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:34 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:22 am
Are you think of this?
This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.’ The thought occurs to him, ‘The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now. Then why not me?’ Then he eventually abandons conceit, having relied on conceit. ‘This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.’ Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.
https://suttacentral.net/an4.159/en/thanissaro
That is an example yes.
Bhava and self-identifying is everywhere. It has to become more skillful replacing unskillful 'I-making' with skillful forms before the final stage can ever be reached.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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DooDoot
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:34 am Are you think of this?
Ananda words. Since the nun lusted for Ananda, he must have been youngish.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Cause_and_Effect
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:49 am I tend to agree with the OP, but there are two main limitations to this notion:

1- In constructs, certain parts seem more central to the functionality of the designed/intended unit. In a car for instance, the engine is often perceived as more central than a mirror, and this is usually rationalized by comparing the functionality of the car without a mirror with the functionality without an engine. The main problem with this approach is that the engine can still be deconstructed into hundreds of parts, so its centrality is contingent to perceiving it as unit that fits in harmony with other parts to form the ultimate unit (the car). The ultimate unit (the car) is provisional to other cars in the streets to form traffic. This goes on and on.

2- Degrees of self can be a cause for overestimating the importance of certain parts by perceiving them as central, and underestimating other parts. The head, where the brain or mind is perceived to be located is assumed more central than the hand, but imagine a thorn entering your finger would prevent you from sleeping if you do not remove it. The effects of a stressful situation during the day might subside quicker. Death and decay can be said to be a gradual process that often happens under the radar by what we habitually overlook.
Clearly it is connected to the idea of maintaining life faculty and consistency of becoming within the aggregate processes.
You can replace or lose your arm but not your head for example.

You can replace your heart, but people often report that they have feelings and emotions associated with a new personality when that happens so it is closer to self.

Clearly there is a danger of the 'I am' conceit arising but it doesn't diminish the utility of the approach or the implicit existence of the idea in the Buddha's teaching.

Perhaps kamma could be seen as closest to 'self' if we see 'becoming/being' as dependently arisen process, and the consciousness faculty that give rise to kamma as in intention, as close to self. Then it leads to the conditions that give rise to intention. However there is clearly a feedback loop of intention, kamma, consciousness i.e a range or pattern or feedback loops within the twelve links of dependent arising that we would consider closer to 'selfing' than simply parts of the process that are more transitory effects without the consistent causal input.

For example intention and deliberation is perhaps considered 'more self' than feeling due to having more of a causal and willed role.

On the other hand feelings although more passive are held as very central to self and identity so one may not agree.
Both feeling and intention are closer to self than ones fingernails though for sure, to the extent one can separate them out which can be done.

Either way the perspective and evaluation of this is helpful I think.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
Bundokji
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Bundokji »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:31 pm Clearly it is connected to the idea of maintaining life faculty and consistency of becoming within the aggregate processes.
You can replace or lose your arm but not your head for example.

You can replace your heart, but people often report that they have feelings and emotions associated with a new personality when that happens so it is closer to self.

Clearly there is a danger of the 'I am' conceit arising but it doesn't diminish the utility of the approach or the implicit existence of the idea in the Buddha's teaching.

Perhaps kamma could be seen as closest to 'self' if we see 'becoming/being' as dependently arisen process, and the consciousness faculty that give rise to kamma as in intention, as close to self. Then it leads to the conditions that give rise to intention. However there is clearly a feedback loop of intention, kamma, consciousness i.e a range or pattern or feedback loops within the twelve links of dependent arising that we would consider closer to 'selfing' than simply parts of the process that are more transitory effects without the consistent causal input.

For example intention and deliberation is perhaps considered 'more self' than feeling due to having more of a causal and willed role.

On the other hand feelings although more passive are held as very central to self and identity so one may not agree.
Both feeling and intention are closer to self than ones fingernails though for sure, to the extent one can separate them out which can be done.

Either way the perspective and evaluation of this is helpful I think.
As the self lacks concrete meaning, the degrees of self can be a measure of recognition and continuity within a certain context. In the context of employment for example, contracts are based on a code of conduct of which certain breaches are more central to the termination of the relationship than others. For example, being late once in a while could be more tolerated than the sexual harassment of a colleague.

While Buddhism focuses more on the internal, or the first person perspective of things, the division between the internal and external seems central to the process of DO. Having no memory of birth, and not witnessing ones own death makes the five aggregates subject to clinging not less dependent on the external view than the internal view for its continuity. In SN 22.57, Vakkali had a wish to see the Buddha before passing away, in reference to the Buddha of flesh and blood (which appeared central to Vakkali's cognition). The Buddha dismissed the centrality of the body to knowing him:
"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."
So, centrality itself seems contingent, not incontingent. In a way, it represents a hierarchy of values relevant to the functions and operations of systems. In systems, unity implies continuity while division implies ending. Death is the beginning of a process, which is the breaking up of the body. Having the body in one unit is a mark of continuity, and a measure of recognition when a certain part becomes missing. In worldly affairs, having an arm amputated is not the end of being recognizable, but the lack becomes integrated into future references as in "the man with an amputated arm).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Rambutan »

“Self” only occurs conditionally, in relation to other things.
For example, one can refer to yoursrkf or myself, just as one refers to the Amazon river and the Mississippi River.

Relative to each other, we can say that yes, one is different than the other.

But within a singular context, no self can be observed. The Amazon river in not the same river even for a moment. Same with the Mississippi or any river, or any phenomenon for that matter.

If I say I got my hair cut but you didn’t, this is still a conditional arising. It doesn’t mean that there is any true “me” that can be found in my body. Or in the hair which had been cut off.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Goofaholix »

Self is provisional, it is conceptual, that's the point.

We need concepts like I, me, you etc in order to interact with the world around us and make sense of things on a workable level, but this is just provisional. I have a name, a job, identification, belonging, life story etc.

When we see clearly what is really going on, on a mental and physical level, nothing is permanent and there is no entity controlling all of this. The five aggregates are subject to causes and conditions, and there is no real and permanent self only a concept.

I think you maker a good point, but with unhelpful examples.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Rambutan »

“Self” only occurs conditionally, in relation to other things.
For example, one can refer to yourself or myself, just as one refers to the Amazon river and the Mississippi River, as being two separate and distinct entities.

Relative to each other, we can say that yes, one is different than the other.

But within a singular context, no self can be observed. The Amazon river in not the same river even for a moment. Same with the Mississippi or any river, or any phenomenon for that matter. “You cannot stand in the same river twice” …or even once, as the case may be.

If I say I got my hair cut but you didn’t, this is still a conditional arising. It doesn’t mean that there is any true “me” that can be found in my body. Or in the hair which had been cut off.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by one_awakening »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm Ones hair is percevlived to be less 'self' than ones hands
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 am But the witnessing or mind-consciouness may be the hardest to cultivate the not-self perception of as it is generally closer to our sense of identity.
Maybe we need to cultivate the perception that mind consciousness has no more self than a human hair
“You only lose what you cling to”
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

one_awakening wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:43 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:47 pm Ones hair is percevlived to be less 'self' than ones hands
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 8:05 am But the witnessing or mind-consciouness may be the hardest to cultivate the not-self perception of as it is generally closer to our sense of identity.
Maybe we need to cultivate the perception that mind consciousness has no more self than a human hair
I don't agree because it's against human experience and I would even say the dhamma.
Not only it is Citta that is liberated, but also cultivating of wholesome states of Citta is the path while abandoning unwholesome states.
This self/not self distinction is the first use of the provisional self on the path, to learn to identify with skillful over unskillful action.
Hair is a non sentient material phenomenon so is first and most easily abandoned as not self.
While there are suttas encouraging of all the aggregates to be seen as notself in the same was as 'twigs and leaves', I would argue that implicit throughout the teachings is to cultivate healthy perception of 'self vs not-self' and beneficial consciousness states are high on this list.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Ontheway »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:54 am Self is provisional, it is conceptual, that's the point.

We need concepts like I, me, you etc in order to interact with the world around us and make sense of things on a workable level, but this is just provisional. I have a name, a job, identification, belonging, life story etc.

When we see clearly what is really going on, on a mental and physical level, nothing is permanent and there is no entity controlling all of this. The five aggregates are subject to causes and conditions, and there is no real and permanent self only a concept.

I think you maker a good point, but with unhelpful examples.
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sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Jack19990101 »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:54 am Self is provisional, it is conceptual, that's the point.

We need concepts like I, me, you etc in order to interact with the world around us and make sense of things on a workable level, but this is just provisional. I have a name, a job, identification, belonging, life story etc.

When we see clearly what is really going on, on a mental and physical level, nothing is permanent and there is no entity controlling all of this. The five aggregates are subject to causes and conditions, and there is no real and permanent self only a concept.

I think you maker a good point, but with unhelpful examples.
I heard, too, about this statement 'self is conceptual.'
I am not sure it is true tho. Maybe to a degree it makes sense but -
thinking of animals or babies, they don't have conceptual mind, but they are full of self-preservations.
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:21 am Hair is a non sentient material phenomenon so is first and most easily abandoned as not self.
It is easier to see the body as not-self than the mind, despite the mind changing more rapidly according to the Buddha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The use of the provisional self or 'degrees of self'

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:48 am
Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:54 am Self is provisional, it is conceptual, that's the point.

We need concepts like I, me, you etc in order to interact with the world around us and make sense of things on a workable level, but this is just provisional. I have a name, a job, identification, belonging, life story etc.

When we see clearly what is really going on, on a mental and physical level, nothing is permanent and there is no entity controlling all of this. The five aggregates are subject to causes and conditions, and there is no real and permanent self only a concept.

I think you maker a good point, but with unhelpful examples.
I heard, too, about this statement 'self is conceptual.'
I am not sure it is true tho. Maybe to a degree it makes sense but -
thinking of animals or babies, they don't have conceptual mind, but they are full of self-preservations.
A baby has self preservation? You sure?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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