Can we eliminate attachment and aversion without eliminating ignorance?

[SarathW]

Can we eliminate attachment and aversion without eliminating ignorance?

[SteRo]

"Ignorance" has the connotation of "to ignore something" which is a paradox because in order to ignore something that something has to be known but knowing something that something isn't ignored.

[asahi]

Can we eliminate attachment and aversion without eliminating ignorance?

Attachment n aversion arises when there is ignorance as the causal factor and its condition . But it is possible to temporary suppress certain degree of clinging n repelling with jhana .

[Mr. Seek]

Do Buddhists in general even know what ignorance (avijja) is?

[SarathW]

Do Buddhists in general even know what ignorance (avijja) is?

I think many people know that ignorance means not knowing the Four Noble Truths.
Perhaps many do not know what Four Noble Truths are.
That is why much Buddhist think observing precepts or practicing meditation can eliminate attachment and aversion.

[Mr. Seek]

Do Buddhists in general even know what ignorance (avijja) is?

I think many people know that ignorance means not knowing the Four Noble Truths.
Perhaps many do not know what Four Noble Truths are.
That is why much Buddhist think observing precepts or practicing meditation can eliminate attachment and aversion.

Precisely my point. Avijja has a much deeper meaning. Rougly a billion people on this Earth know the 4NT and you can bet your behind that most of them are as igmorant as they can possibly get.

About your original question: I think it goes both ways. Initially you eliminate a bit of greed and aversion by sheer force of will, then vijja deals the final blow. I think you need vijja, because otherwise it's just your will and intention keeping the whole act together. Also and generally speaking, you can't get vijja if you don't try striving first.

[SarathW]

then vijja deals the final blow.

Perhaps these are the last five fetters.

[Mr. Seek]

then vijja deals the final blow.

Perhaps these are the last five fetters.

I don't know. To me this sounds like trying to make sense of original Christianity by looking through the Book of Mormon, or any other exegesis. As metaphysical concepts, vijja and avijja preceed the 4NT and the 10F by centuries, if not millennia. But yes, you need discernment, knowledge, vision, in order to end all of those problems for good. This is where 'dependencies' or DO come into play by suggesting how to disentangle this whole mess.